Close

Results 1 to 12 of 12
Like Tree4Likes
  • 2 Post By meketrefe
  • 1 Post By meketrefe
  • 1 Post By RDFABSREP

Thread: .223 vs 7.62x39 vs .308

  1. #1
    Private BeOurProtector's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    43

    Default .223 vs 7.62x39 vs .308

    Hello all,

    I am looking for a sporting rifle in a popular caliber, a "SAPR" or "Battle-rifle" or the like (for all you Nutnfancy fans)
    My thinking is buying something in either .223, 7.62x39 or .308.
    Of course trying not to blow the bank.
    Here are my thoughts...


    7.62x39
    - Low Accuracy, Medium-Power, Low $/ per round Cost, Low Applicable Rifle Cost, Low Ammo Availability in shtf.

    .223 - Medium Accuracy, Low-Power, Medium $/ per round Cost, Medium Applicable Rifle Cost, High Ammo Availability in shtf.

    .308
    - High Accuracy, High-Power, Medium $/ per round Cost, High Applicable Rifle Cost, Medium Ammo Availability in shtf.



    The only other caveats that i have for this choice is that if i go .308 or .223 I'm going to have to wait upwards of 3 months to get started because there is just still so much dust in the air over how to legally build an AR platform rifle. The 7.62x39 means i can go pick up a Saiga tomorrow and be fine since they are NY legal right now. The Ruger Mini14 option is just way too small of a value... $800 for half the accuracy of the AR platform is not something I'm willing to do. Also note that the Saiga is made in all (3) of these calibers, .223, .308 and 7.62x39.

    Thoughts!
    Older generation shooters please welcome and mentor your younger generation shooters.
    Younger generation shooters please respect and learn from your older generation shooters.

    Ruger 10/22 Carbine -- Marlin 336 Lever Action -- Mossberg 500 -- Mosin 91/30

  2. #2
    General
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Logan, Utah
    Posts
    9,679

    Default

    when you say .223 low power medium accuracy and 7.62x39 medium power low accuracy not sure what you have in mind because that is not accurate at all.

    Accuracy.

    A 7.62x39 can be super accurate. Obviously not with inexpensive steel /surplus loads but if you get some match ammo in brass and a CZ carbine you will get to print inside MOA all day long. An AR can be also very accurate inside MOA. I have one.

    The .223 is probably the most accurate on average of the three even with bulk loads. The M16/AR15 was specifically built and designed for the .223. Some loads are very accurate in nature and people are accurate because of the comfort and low recoil it produces. Many ARs produce sub moa groups w/o too much effort.

    The 308w is also a king of accuracy but it is harder to master for average folks specially in smaller lighter platforms.


    Power.

    A 7.62x39 is a great SBR short range cartridge. It was phased out in favor to the 5.45 x 39 that follows similar directives as the .223 / 5.56 but not quite as good. The good thing is there are some nice inexpensive 125 to 152gr steel options with softpoints to take on deer and hogs but the reach is limited and trajectory is not particularly flat.

    The .223 offers amazing 60 to 80gr options. It is not as good for pistol size barrels /SBR as the 7.62x39 but that is not even allowed in NYS so for 16" barrels it gets plenty of power in short range and some of these loads carry more energy and shoot flatter startting at 100yards and beyond than the 7.62x39. The russian uses too light for caliber bullets for that amount of powder. Same problem you have with the now popular whisper/blackout but not quite as bad. The only thing is the 7.62x39 can also be a great subsonic and in that area the whisper/blackout is where they really shine. solid bullets of 70gr like TSX reguire a 8 twist. 7 twist is the standard in M16 style carbines. So one can start with less punch but soon the best loads this caliber can offer leave others behind at 100-200 yards.

    The 308w needs no introducion but it goes into a much heavier platform. One can keep it really light but using short barrels and lighten bolts but in 16" doesn't really make a lot of sense. A lot of powder will be burn outside the barrel. 18" would be the bare mininum and 20" best.

    HEre some tests I have done with some commercial ammunitions (among others) using the AR15 platform including those mentioned. This might help you clarify any doubts. Also if you need spreads from any commercial ammo let me know because I have measured many of the commercial loads in several barrel lengths.





    Last edited by meketrefe; 10-25-2013 at 02:02 PM.
    Dieter122 and RandallOfLegend like this.




  3. #3
    Major
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Saratoga area
    Posts
    1,534

    Default

    SKS gets you a 10 shot fixed magazine (no so called SAFE act worries) in a RUGGED rifle chambered in 7.62x39. I bought one recently for $275 shipped to my local FFL. In my opinion, they are the best bang for the buck in this misguided, poorly written so called safe act environment.

    Ammunition availability even TODAY is anyone's guess. If you are planning for SHTF, forget finding ammo after TEOTWAWKI, plan to already HAVE it or the componants to load it.

    Accuracy is not a function of the cartridge but of the individual rifle and the individual shooter matched to ammunition load in that individual rifle. I have had AKs that wouldn't stay on paper at 100 yards and I have had them that would stay in a six inch circle all day long. One loading of 308 might be MOA in my rifle. Same rifle with another brand of ammo wouldn't hold 3 MOA.... Sadly, all of those rifles have been sold because of this law forced through in the dark of night by ignorant politicians.

    My advice is to go handle as many of your potential choices as possible. See how they feel to you. Fire them if possible. THEN make a choice based on the poor choices still available to us in occupied territory.
    Last edited by groovy mike; 10-25-2013 at 01:55 PM.
    Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness. Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord; trust in Him, and He will act. Psalm 37:3-7

  4. #4
    Colonel androokwomo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Erie
    Posts
    3,667

    Default

    I think there's a ton of considerations that go into that. In short I'll say this....

    If you like to shout "Allah Akbar" when you shoot, go with the Saiga. Something lost in translation when you do that with an AR pattern.

    Best suggestion might be to go to a range that rents and try whatever you can. See what you like, go that route.

  5. #5
    General
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Logan, Utah
    Posts
    9,679

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by androokwomo View Post
    I think there's a ton of considerations that go into that. In short I'll say this....

    If you like to shout "Allah Akbar" when you shoot, go with the Saiga. Something lost in translation when you do that with an AR pattern.

    Best suggestion might be to go to a range that rents and try whatever you can. See what you like, go that route.
    LOL! never heard that "Allah Akbar" before. Actually a 5.56 saiga is a pretty accurate and rugged platform for what it is.
    The only dowside for me is that it is 1:9 twist so one maxes out at 70+ grains and no 70 solids will stabiblize.
    But at the other hand the nosler partition and 62TSX will do just fine and will be more than plenty to tackle anything.
    Also there is acompany in texas (Magnolia State) that offers a bottom magwell conversion to AR magazines that works quite well. (some milling required) .
    androokwomo likes this.




  6. #6
    Colonel androokwomo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Erie
    Posts
    3,667

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by meketrefe View Post
    LOL! never heard that "Allah Akbar" before. Actually a 5.56 saiga is a pretty accurate and rugged platform for what it is.
    The only dowside for me is that it is 1:9 twist so one maxes out at 70+ grains and no 70 solids will stabiblize.
    But at the other hand the nosler partition and 62TSX will do just fine and will be more than plenty to tackle anything.
    Also there is acompany in texas (Magnolia State) that offers a bottom magwell conversion to AR magazines that works quite well. (some milling required) .
    Very true, didn't consider caliber options for the Saiga.

  7. #7
    General
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Logan, Utah
    Posts
    9,679

    Default

    Other things to consider...

    5.56 can be found a reasonable cost for practice. Bottom barrel AK too in steel.
    For match ammo you will be paying more with AK being even more expensive than 308w and always more expensive than .223 specialized ammo like Hornady TAP, corbon or double tap.
    308w still scarce but like the 5.56 it is a service round.
    308 and 223 is also available in steel. I do not like it but others do.
    Standard 308 and 223/5.56 can be reloaded very cheap. Plenty of once fired brass and bullets.
    The .223 is hard to beat on this end with great bulk packages and very easy and forgiving to reload for beginners.
    308 might be legal to hunt in some areas where the 5.56 is not.
    Many folks enjoy precision shooting with the .223. Very accurate and easy on the pocket.

    So everything depends on goals, expectations, likes and dislikes and budget too.
    I used to buy things based on impulse and fashion sometimes. Now I buy less stuff and guided based on what I really enjoy shooting.




  8. #8
    Major atTheWheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Monroe county
    Posts
    1,831

    Default

    IMO, don't discount the Mini 14. While it may not be as accurate as an AR platform, it WILL hold its own against any Saiga in any caliber.
    They generally will go bang every time (regardless of brass or steel case) with the right/good magazines.
    They are as handy as an SKS or Saiga and there are almost as many add-ons available for the Mini as an AR platform. Easy to maintain too.
    I wouldn't look to the Mini 30 if you decide on the 7.62x39 round. The SKS or Saiga should serve better for that.

  9. #9
    General
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Logan, Utah
    Posts
    9,679

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by atTheWheels View Post
    IMO, don't discount the Mini 14. While it may not be as accurate as an AR platform, it WILL hold its own against any Saiga in any caliber.
    They generally will go bang every time (regardless of brass or steel case) with the right/good magazines.
    They are as handy as an SKS or Saiga and there are almost as many add-ons available for the Mini as an AR platform. Easy to maintain too.
    I wouldn't look to the Mini 30 if you decide on the 7.62x39 round. The SKS or Saiga should serve better for that.
    Saigas in 308w and 5.56 have been pretty accurate and reliable so far. One of the reasons is that there is more meat in those barrels/trunion and the
    other is the western ammo itself being very consistent. They are both around 1.1/2 MOA and 1MOA or better many times. The short 308w being the most accurate. The 7.62x39 is not as accurate as it lacks the section
    in those areas. This is one of the improvements that make the Krebs AKs so much accurate.

    The mini has improved a with the new wider section at the gas block but the older ones are too flimsy in this area. Rugged reliable firearms nevertheless.
    I am talking from my experiences shooting all those firearms and calibers myself and with my own results and observations. This is data I take and I measure spreads with RCBS ammo master chrono and record loads and targets and I know is data I can rely on.




  10. #10
    Major RDFABSREP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Syracuse, N.Y.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,590

    Default

    If it helps your decision at all, you can buy a stripped AR lower legally in NYS, as we speak. A pistol grip "spur," an A2 buttstock, a bull barrel upper and a 10rd PMAG give you a 100% featureless AR that you can shoot 'til your heart's content and don't have to register.
    meketrefe likes this.
    “Disconnect and self destruct one bullet at a time
    What's your rush, now? Everyone will have his day to die." -APC

    This Too Shall Pass

  11. #11
    Major RandallOfLegend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Rochester
    Posts
    2,337

    Default

    The firearm makes the difference. I was about the same accuracy from my SKS with tech sights as I was with a brand new mini-14 at 50 yards. Less than 200 yards, it would be a tossup with those rounds. Although 223 would have more issue with wind drift.

  12. #12
    General
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Logan, Utah
    Posts
    9,679

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RandallOfLegend View Post
    The firearm makes the difference. I was about the same accuracy from my SKS with tech sights as I was with a brand new mini-14 at 50 yards. Less than 200 yards, it would be a tossup with those rounds. Although 223 would have more issue with wind drift.
    Randall,
    The factor of wind is the quite the opposite to want you mentioned. The ballistic coefficient of a typical 122-125gr fmj in .311 caliber is G1 .270 (.260 in the hornady SST).
    So the russian will show 5.9 MOA at 300 yards with a 10mph full value wind at 3 o'clock.


    2350 123 0.260 200 0
    0 100 200 300 400
    2350 2020 1722 1455 1215
    1508 1115 810 578 403
    0.00 3.48 15.56 39.49 80.09
    -1.50 3.55 0.00 -15.40 -47.47

    -3.38 0.00 4.89 11.30

    1.69 3.63 5.90 8.57
    0.00 0.14 0.30 0.49 0.71







    However A 223 75gr Hornady TAP will need only 2.90 MOA at the same distance of 300 yards with a 10mph wind at 3pm full value.

    .223 REM LC - 75grHPBT- 18" 2715 75 0.395 510 0 100 0.00 200 10
    Range (Yds) 0 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800
    Speed (fps) 2715 2475 2246 2029 1822 1627 1442 1269 1107
    Energy (ft.lb) 1228 1020 840 685 553 441 346 268 204
    Drop (in) 0.00 2.51 10.71 25.82 49.41 83.51 130.79 194.83 280.47
    Path (in) -1.75 1.97 0.00 -8.88 -26.25 -54.12 -95.17 -152.98 -232.39
    Elevn(MOA)
    -1.88 0.00 2.82 6.25 10.31 15.11 20.81 27.67
    Windage(MOA)
    0.88 1.84 2.90 4.09 5.41 6.89 8.57 10.49
    Elevn(MIL)
    -0.55 0.00 0.82 1.82 3.00 4.39 6.05 8.05
    Windage(MIL)
    0.25 0.54 0.84 1.19 1.57 2.00 2.49 3.05
    Time(Sec) 0.00 0.12 0.24 0.38 0.54 0.71 0.91 1.13 1.38
    Power Factor 204 186 168 152 137 122 108 95 83

    So to put things into perspective the .223/556 will show a drift at impact of 8.5" at that distance while the 7.62x39 will show 16.8 inches
    in drift. That is double the drift for the russian round.
    Also the 5.56 will retain enough energy 685ft-lb and specially speed 2029fps to avoid pin hole wounding, something typical of the larger AK at those distances with 578ft-lb and what is critical barely supersonic with 1215fps and heading straight to the ground .
    One can improve and sqeeze a bit more with a long barrel / SKS and special loads but so it can the 5.56 wiht 77gr nato rounds and the
    amazing 80gr Amax and berger VLD. The 77gr Sierra Match King and 80gr amax are both very accurate and deadly at much longer
    ranges where the AK round cannot reach.
    I think something that makes more sense is to keep the AK in the short barrel / short distance heavy grain category. Otherwise it is
    really a waste.




Similar Threads

  1. For Sale/Trade: 7.62x39
    By eyes in forum Ammo and Reloading Equipment For Sale
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-28-2013, 12:40 AM
  2. Done: PPU 7.62x39 for 357 mag
    By RSBH44 in forum Ammo and Reloading Equipment For Sale
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-17-2013, 11:51 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •