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Thread: can i legally get a pistol to carry where i am licensed to carry

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    Default can i legally get a pistol to carry where i am licensed to carry

    First allow me to introduce myself I am new to the forum but have used it as a reference for most of my needs. Unfortunately I have not found my question asked elsewhere. I currently hold a:
    1. Nyc home/target permit
    2.hunting authorization card
    3.non res utah ccw
    4.non res florida ccw
    5.non res new hampshire ccw

    As you all know my nyc permit will not allow me to carry my registered firearm out of the state.
    It is the firearm i practice with.

    When I travel to pa, nh, or florida which I often do I cannot take my pistol and if I purchase a firearm out of state it would have to end up at a local ffl and would have to get purchase authorization first.
    The one time I was legally carrying was when my cousin loaned me his glock when I visited nh. This was very nice of him however I cannot rely on loans. Is it possible for me to own a firearm that I could leave in pa for when I travel? What if any are my options? Obviously a nyc ccw could do the trick but I'm not "friends" with bloomberg or the like so that's not an option, niether is moving for now. Thanks in advance for any imput or experience you can share. R

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    Major fastk9dad's Avatar
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    Why can't you take your firearm with you? You can't physically carry it on your person but the FOPA safe passage/peaceable journey provision (provided you are going to/from a place you are allowed to legally possess) allows you to have it unloaded in a locked box, with ammo in a separate locked box in the trunk (or otherwise out of reach) of your car. Once you get to somewhere you can legally carry (that honors your UT, FL or NH permits) holster up and be safe.

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    Administrator Jeff's Avatar
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    You can't buy a handgun out of state.

    ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

    Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
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    fastk9dad,

    I do realize I could do this and in theory the NY state restriction has no teeth in another jurisdiction out of state however I was concerned since it explicitly states that I can only travel to and from a range or for hunting in NYS in order for me to have it in the trunk. Therefore going to a range in PA for example is not a valid reason or carrying there for that matter.

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    Except that even without a valid PA LTCF, it is legal for you by PA and Federal law to possess your pistol in PA. By federal law you are allowed to transport your firearm from one place where you are allowed to have it to another place where you are allowed to have it. PA does not restrict any legal possession of a pistol EXCEPT carrying concealed and carrying in a vehicle. You could lock it up in the trunk, drive to PA, get out, and strap your pistol on and open carry it all day at your destination. (Not that I would recommend this, but legally you are good.)
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    Administrator Jeff's Avatar
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    I think what we're missing here is that the restriction of him not being able to bring his gun out of state is an administrative restriction on his NYC permit. Not necessarily illegal to do it but jeopardizes his permit.
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    Colonel ChrisWNY's Avatar
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    I posted recently about facing a similar dilemma. Driving to Indiana in a few days and don't yet have my FL CCW permit, Indiana reciprocates with ANY State that issues CCW permits, so I'm legal to carry there. However, I was a bit unsure of Ohio and PA, I will be driving through both States on the way to Indiana (neither reciprocate with NY). According to USACarry, it's legal to transport the pistol through PA and OH as long as the pistol remains in its case unloaded, magazine/chamber empty. Can't carry concealed in either State unless you have a CCW permit for that State, or a CCW from another State that reciprocates with PA and OH (good thing for the FL non-resident CCW permit).

    I saw that PA allows Open Carry without a license, that's interesting. I heard it's not a good idea though, and chances are it will just draw trouble, even though PA is known to be gun-friendly.

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    Major fastk9dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantstomove View Post
    fastk9dad,

    I do realize I could do this and in theory the NY state restriction has no teeth in another jurisdiction out of state however I was concerned since it explicitly states that I can only travel to and from a range or for hunting in NYS in order for me to have it in the trunk. Therefore going to a range in PA for example is not a valid reason or carrying there for that matter.
    What is the exact wording on permit/paperwork? What do competition shooters do that travel out of state? Does it specifically say you can't bring it out of state? (probably not because federal law would trump that anyway)

    Restrictions really only apply when traveling WITHIN NY state, you can only transport your gun for explicit purposes.

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    Gold Vendor RochPersDef's Avatar
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    You should be able to transport your handgun to another state that you have a license in (Carry is on the body, transport is cased and unloaded - not on your body). If you have a Non resident CARRY permit in PA, then you can carry it. If you have the Utah NR carry permit, which is valid in PA, you can still carry. (concealed of course as that's what the UT permit is)

    I hope that's what you were getting at
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    Even still, if he's pulled over while still in NY and is not going to a range or hunting within NY state and it's reported back to the judge or whoever issued the permit he can probably kiss it goodbye.
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    Gold Vendor RochPersDef's Avatar
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    That might be an issue, but if he's transporting it somewhere legally, he should be fine.

    He's going to a range in PA.......
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    Agree, Jeff, if there are provisions on the permit stating not to carry/transport outside NYC, not a good idea if he's caught doing so. As I recall, the rest of NYS does not recognize NYC permits, since differing issuing authorities sign off on them; it's definitely not a good idea to carry (or even transport) from NYC into another NYS County, or vice-versa (carrying into NYC from outside). From what I was told by the pistol permit investigator, if you're caught with a handgun, whether carried on your or in your vehicle, it better be registered on a valid/recognized permit in whatever part of NYS you happen to be in, otherwise you can be charged criminally. To my knowledge, NYS is one of few States that can charge someone for transporting a handgun, there are exceptions, but those exceptions quite specific.

    NYPD issues to NYC residents, everywhere else in NY (to my knowledge) a judge issues CCW permits (sometimes restricted depending on the County).
    Last edited by ChrisWNY; 08-08-2011 at 10:14 PM.

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    The OP is in NYC. Different world down there and FOPA won't shield him from a license revocation for breaking the NYPD's administrative restrictions. Here's some info from their FAQ page, emphasis mine:

    Can I go target shooting outside NYC?

    A NYC carry business license is valid throughout NYS. Premise residence and premise business licenses are only valid in NYC except as indicated in the next section.

    Can I go hunting if I have a premises residence license?

    You must obtain a hunting authorization from the License Division to hunt in an authorized area designated by the NYS Fish and Wildlife law. Your handgun must be transported unloaded, in a locked container and you must comply with all relevant NYS hunting regulations.
    Might be worth a call to the NYPD licensing division to see if they have an endorsement to let you take the gun out of state for competitions or the like. Worst they'll do is tell you no but I'd imagine that you can't be the only NYC license holder that wants the ability to legally take his handguns out of the city.
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    I wouldn't chance it. A judge can yank your permit for any reason he wants. Violating your restrictions is probably the fastest way to make that happen.

    The federal law for interstate transportation of firearms does say "Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof" so you could probably fight it in court but the legal bills would be through the roof.
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    Gold Vendor RochPersDef's Avatar
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    Chris:

    Carry is one thing, transport is another.

    True that if his permit says "Valid in NYC only" then he may well be stuck......
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    Here's what I'm confused about - how is the NYC permit viewed by those few (13 or so) States that reciprocate with NYS CCW licenses? Are NYC permits a different animal, compared to those who have permits by Counties that fall outside NYC? I would assume a NYC permit would be valid for CCW, for example, in Alaska, or any other State that reciprocates with NY, but I wasn't sure.

    I'm surprised any State recognizes NYS/NYC CCW permits, considering NYS's exclusivity, not recognizing ANY CCW permits from out-of-State, period. Then again, it's a relatively safe bet that anyone with a NYS/NYC CCW permit has a squeaky clean background and is free of mental health issues, so perhaps some of those reciprocating States see it that way. Man it would be nice if that Federal Reciprocity Act passes, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

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    Gold Vendor RochPersDef's Avatar
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    Some will recognize ANY permit, regardless of state. They don't single NY out at all, it's just that if they take anyone, they end up with ours.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisWNY View Post
    Then again, it's a relatively safe bet that anyone with a NYS/NYC CCW permit has a squeaky clean background and is free of mental health issues
    The Binghamton shooter had a valid NYS pistol license.....
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    Super Moderator Bill's Avatar
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    If he has the hunting endorsement, yet he can't take it out of the city where can he hunt?
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    Gold Vendor RochPersDef's Avatar
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    You just had to bring that up......
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    Default NYC Laws are STRICT

    RochPersDef: You should be able to transport your handgun to
    another state that you have a license in (Carry is on the body,
    transport is cased and unloaded - not on your body). If you have
    a Non resident CARRY permit in PA, then you can carry it. If you
    have the Utah NR carry permit, which is valid in PA, you can
    still carry. (concealed of course as that's what the UT permit
    is)
    This is incorrect and violates NY State law. When I first got my
    permit I could not believe this law, so I hired an attorney to
    explain it to me. See the decision of Beach Vs Kelly. There is no
    legal reason that you can remove your weapon from NYC.

    If you take your weapon to an airport, TSA will report you to
    NYPD and they will confiscate the weapon and you will loose you
    license at the very least. I have been warned this is true at all
    NYC airports, Newark and Philladelphia.

    IF you get an non-resident permit from the states that offer
    it (CT, Florida, Virginia, Utah). You can legally borrow/rent a
    weapon in states where this license is valid.

    This is the ruling. One can only hope that it will be overturned
    due the the Supreme Court's recent decisions:

    Matter of Beach v Kelly (2008 NY Slip Op 05814)

    here is a key part:


    Possession of a handgun is a privilege, not a right, and is
    subject to the broad discretion of the New York City Police
    Commissioner (Matter of Papaioannou v Kelly, 14 AD3d 459
    [2005]). The power to issue a license for such purpose
    necessarily and inherently includes the authority to impose
    conditions and restrictions (People v Thompson, 92 NY2d 957,
    959 [1998]). The fact that it was lawful for him to carry his
    firearm to a small arms range/shooting club or designated
    hunting area is beside the point. Petitioner violated the
    terms of his premises residence license when he carried his
    firearm to and from the airport for his trip to Nevada.

    It is not necessary to permit holders of premises residence
    firearms licenses to transport guns to another state in order
    to harmonize the law of this State with the provisions of
    FOPA. Section 926A permits a licensee, in certain
    circumstances, to transport a firearm "from any place where
    he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other
    place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm."
    Where the licensee is not permitted by the terms of the
    license to lawfully carry the firearm at the time he embarks
    on a trip to another state, FOPA is inapplicable. [*2]
    twogunwilly: If he has the hunting endorsement, yet he can't take
    it out of the city where can he hunt?
    With a hunting endorsement he can take it to a small set of
    designated hunting sites.


    I am new to this message board, but I have been documenting my
    experiences with the NYPD process and my understandings of the
    NYC laws over here

    Defensive Handguns Forum - Lessons Learned; Obtaining permits in NYC

    Its a long and involved story, as you might expect. The laws are
    not what they appear to be at first glance.
    Jeff, Tim1, Smurfette and 1 others like this.

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    Major OwnTheRide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisWNY View Post
    I posted recently about facing a similar dilemma. Driving to Indiana in a few days and don't yet have my FL CCW permit, Indiana reciprocates with ANY State that issues CCW permits, so I'm legal to carry there. However, I was a bit unsure of Ohio and PA, I will be driving through both States on the way to Indiana (neither reciprocate with NY). According to USACarry, it's legal to transport the pistol through PA and OH as long as the pistol remains in its case unloaded, magazine/chamber empty. Can't carry concealed in either State unless you have a CCW permit for that State, or a CCW from another State that reciprocates with PA and OH (good thing for the FL non-resident CCW permit).

    I saw that PA allows Open Carry without a license, that's interesting. I heard it's not a good idea though, and chances are it will just draw trouble, even though PA is known to be gun-friendly.
    I can answer your PA question.

    As you noted, you can open carry in all of PA except for Philadelphia. You are not likely to draw trouble outside of Philly (where you wouldn't be allowed to carry without a PA LTCF anyway) - for every negative encounter you've read about, there's thousands of positive encounters and even more non-encounters. The reality is that 98% of people are too busy with their own lives to even notice a full-sized polished 1911 on your hip.

    However, PA considers open carrying in a vehicle to be concealed carry. Luckily, there is an exception that applies to you: anyone with a valid permit from any state may carry in a vehicle. However, you will not be exempt from the Gun Free School Zone BS since you do not possess a PA LTCF (to get by GFSZ, you need to have a license from the state the school is in).

    All of this is easily verified - head to the PAFOA.org open carry forum and take a look at the stickies, the laws and explanations of them are visible.

    I recommend you stop somewhere on your drive through PA and apply for an LTCF. It's incredibly refreshing to go through that process after dealing with the headache of NY.

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    Major fastk9dad's Avatar
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    I hadn't seen that decision before... that's ridiculous. I would of argued with a premise permit he is allowed to possess and carry there, making the start of his destination a place where he can legally carry and possess. Yeah, I know, I'm confusing the issue with logic.

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    NYC needs to break off the mainland and sink. That pisses me off so much that they can just add more bull**** restrictions on top of the ones this stupid state already has. And how the hell do they not have to honor any other county permits but all the other counties honor theirs?
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    Colonel ChrisWNY's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if that's the case, I don't believe any other NYS Counties honor NYC permits. It wouldn't matter anyway since NYC doesn't allow anyone to transport their handgun outside of NYC. Consider NYC in its own country as far as pistol permits go.

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