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Thread: The bullet button fiasco

  1. #1
    Corporal
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    Lightbulb The bullet button fiasco

    Hi All!
    I spend way more time here reading than posting but this is just one of those topics that has my curiosity that I'd like to discuss as I can't ever find an exact answer. Hopefully with this thread we can at least temporarily put this to bed.

    Over on this thread on pages 12-14 http://www.nyfirearms.com/forums/law...update-12.html
    NYshooter1 goes on to say that

    Yes there is a definition. Three new definitions were added to Penal Law Section 265, which is the definitions section, by the Safe Act:

    Section 265.00 subdivision 24. "DETACHABLE MAGAZINE" means any ammunition feeding device, the function of which is to deliver one or more ammunition cartridges into the firing chamber, which can be removed from the firearm without the use of any tool, including a bullet or ammunition cartridge.


    Unless I don't understand basic English, this seems quite evident that a bullet button or similar device installed would make the AR platform no longer an "assault weapon" by the smart people in charge as you need a tool making it no longer detachable by definition.
    As a short term solution until this whole SAFE Act debacle is resolved, I can live with using this device to keep my AR as is.

    Here is where my confusion comes in though.
    According to this site Article 265 - Penal Law - Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapons which seems to be updated as recently as 5/16/13 there is no such entry for article 265.24. This implies that there is no such definition for a detachable magazine.

    The reference that I was able to find for 265.24 is for bill # S01422. The full text of that bill is here Bills It looks like it was referred to codes on 1/9/13 and has never been voted on.

    So with all that being said it seems to me that currently in New York there is no definition for a detachable magazing so at this point a bullet button or similar device is a no go.

    Thanks,
    Daryl

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    Colonel Prominus's Avatar
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    I agree that a bullet bullet should render the AR-15 not an assault weapon because the magazine would no longer be detachable without a tool.

    If they consider that not good enough as in it is "Not permanent" then that would make every single semi-automatic rifle with a fixed magazine an assault rifle because they can all be removed with tools.

  3. #3
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    I have been asking the the question on what NYS considers a detachable magazine since the Safe Act was signed, and this is the most action I have seen on this topic since. If what NY. I seen in the original NY Safe Act that was proposed vs the one that passed has a sections that stated what a detachable magazine stated in the rough draft version

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    This is the most confusing criminal law ever written. How could it possibly stand up?
    the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

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    When the bill first came out bullet buttons weren't good enough now they are? If it takes a year or more, I don't care, i want this gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robhimself View Post
    When the bill first came out bullet buttons weren't good enough now they are? If it takes a year or more, I don't care, i want this gone.
    What part of the law ever said that a bullet button was no good. If the magazine is not detachable then the magazine is not detachable. You could apply the law to every single semi-auto rifle if this was the case because they all "Come apart"
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    Sergeant KarsEutoksur's Avatar
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    Here's a source for the current law: Article 265 - Penal Law - Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapons There is nothing that says 'permanent', defines a detachable magazine, or defines an assault weapon as anything other than '(a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the following characteristics: [silly feature list]'. So, another free opinion for what it is worth: While a bullet button prevents the magazine from being detached, once it is detached, the rifle will then 'accept a detachable magazine'. So a bullet button may not solve the problem. On the other hand, for about $2, one could modify the magazine catch (with basically a sleve and a nut instead of the magazine release button) so that it locks a magazine in place. If the nut is removed (needs a tool) then the magazine catch will not hold a detachable magazine and in this configuration the rifle will not 'accept a detachable magazine'. Try putting one in and it just falls out. Put it in and tighten the nut (with a tool) and the magazine is again held in place. The only difference between this setup and the bullet button is that you need a tool to both remove the magazine, and also to get the gun to hold another one when inserted. If they change the law to say any magazine that can be removed or inserted with a tool, well, that's just about every gun ..... I saw this mechanism referred to as a 'Cuomo Nut' on another forum. With it in place, the gun does not meet definition of 'assault weapon', even if the gun has [silly feature list]. This might be an option when your gun needs to leave the house for public range use. However, just because this particular approach makes sense based on the language of the law doesn't mean the gun isn't going to be challenged and that you won't have to defend the position (for $$) in court. In the end this law needs to be fixed (tossed in its entirety). Short of that, the best defense against the law is to read it, understand it, identify the opportunities it still provides, and figure out which ones (if any) to use, and when.
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    There is no definition for "detachable magazine." The "265.00(24)" quoted above was taken from one of the various "AW" bans that didn't pass. The real 265.00(24) defines the term "Seller of ammunition."
    Baby Kaboomer and dave9988 like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davejensen View Post
    There is no definition for "detachable magazine."

    Hmm, so if such a device is not defined I clearly do not own one. I fail to see how I can be held accountable for having a device that does not exist.

    I also do not have a 'muzzle break', either attached to my Personal Defense Rifle(s) or not...just don't seem to have anything that would cause my muzzle to break as I take good care of my property.

    If we can get a similar non-difinition of 'pistol grip' we're good to go. The grip held by my 'trigger hand' was not design for and has never been attached to a pistol of any kind....


    IANAL, so clearly this position should be reviewed by counsel before trying this at home.

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    what does that do to an m1 Garand?

  11. #11
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    Hope this gets cleared up. Have no issue installing a bullet button to avoid reg for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegatman View Post
    what does that do to an m1 Garand?
    It depends who you ask, do not take this to sound sarcastic, the valid question is, "is the en bloc" a detachable magazine; well if you read the law as written, one wonders could it be, yes/no/maybe....magic 8-ball anyone???????????????

    If you call the [un]Safe Act Hotline, I will bet you a Coke that every officer will confirm the M1 Garand does NOT equate to a NYS AW, at least when I was calling back several months ago. I put through over a dozen calls, asked about the M1 Garand six separate times, every time I was told it is not an AW.

    However it just takes one Stalanist Commissar to approach you at the range and give you a bad day, if they read things differently and flip out that you had more than 7 rounds on the en-bloc.........totally crazy town.............pray for repeal.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by davejensen View Post
    There is no definition for "detachable magazine." The "265.00(24)" quoted above was taken from one of the various "AW" bans that didn't pass. The real 265.00(24) defines the term "Seller of ammunition."
    Well that's a helluva definition, too:

    24. "Seller of ammunition" means any person, firm, partnership, corporation or company who engages in the business of purchasing, selling or keeping ammunition.


    How often do I need to engage in said business to be such a seller? Sheesh.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave9988 View Post
    Well that's a helluva definition, too:

    24. "Seller of ammunition" means any person, firm, partnership, corporation or company who engages in the business of purchasing, selling or keeping ammunition.


    How often do I need to engage in said business to be such a seller? Sheesh.

    Just a way for them to force people to get an FFL to buy ammo to shoot.
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    I am taking the spring out of mag release and replacing with a solid spacer.
    Install mag, mag release, then epoxy or weld button inside hole
    It's now non detachable in any way other than drilling out mag release.
    Remove pivot pin to reload.

    No longer an assault weapon and can keep other features.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave9988 View Post
    24. "Seller of ammunition" means any person...who engages in the business of...keeping ammunition.
    What exactly is "the business of keeping ammunition"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jem45472 View Post
    I am taking the spring out of mag release and replacing with a solid spacer.
    Install mag, mag release, then epoxy or weld button inside hole
    It's now non detachable in any way other than drilling out mag release.
    Remove pivot pin to reload.

    No longer an assault weapon and can keep other features.
    i was thinking of doing the same... If it comes to it

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    So if I give a friend a box of ammo it's a crime?
    * NRA ENDOWMENT LIFE * GOA LIFE * SAF LIFE * NYSRPA * SCOPE LIFE *

    This law is dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter122 View Post
    i was thinking of doing the same... If it comes to it
    Yeah, I'm giving the lawsuits a little more time first.

    Also, I'm waiting for some new mags as I only have a couple promags.
    Is the general consensus that Pmags are the most trouble free?

  20. #20
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    all you would need to do is design a little velcro hoop that goes around a finger and have a little bit of a point and theres your tool youd be able to drop magazines easily with a bullet button lol put it on your middle finger or something
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    Quote Originally Posted by daybreaK View Post
    all you would need to do is design a little velcro hoop that goes around a finger and have a little bit of a point and theres your tool youd be able to drop magazines easily with a bullet button lol put it on your middle finger or something
    Bullet buttons a no go in ny. Needs to be permanent.
    Now if you look it up in the safe act there is some confusion, I believe they worded it wrong where it appears you can use a tool or bullet tip.
    I'm 99% sure that its an error though and will be fixed as soon as they start seein bullet buttons appear.

  22. #22
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    From all my research there is no legal definition of a detachable magazine in NY. There was a description in the original draft , but then the draft they voted on did not have this in it. So this is a problem with that Safe Act, there is no legal definition that I can find.

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    Because Cuomo will tell you to shut up about it....He's already told Sheriff's to shut it or possible be fired, what's to say he won't tell citizens of NY to shut it too, or face jail time? After all, he's already violated 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 14th amendments, probably more....I guess according to him, we don't have any rights anymore...
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbarber275 View Post
    From all my research there is no legal definition of a detachable magazine in NY. There was a description in the original draft , but then the draft they voted on did not have this in it. So this is a problem with that Safe Act, there is no legal definition that I can find.
    Thats why Im gonna play it safe and make sure mine cant come out.

    The law does CLEARLY state if it cant accept a detachable magazine, its not an assault weapon. Hence, no need to register.
    Now I am not a lawyer and realize I could still end up in court over this if running into law enforcement trying to make a point, but this is easily winnable in court. There is no other way around it unless they ban all semi-automatics, in which case I would disable gas system.

    Always a workaround, even though we may not like it.

    They will never get me to register.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jem45472 View Post
    Bullet buttons a no go in ny. Needs to be permanent..
    There is no place in the law where you will find the word permanent associated with the things an assault rifle can't have, or with respect to the detachable magazine. The word 'permanently' appears once - a gun isn't an assault weapon if it "has been rendered permanently inoperable." I assume that's not the permanent you're looking for. Also, you cannot have a magazine "that can be readily restored or converted to accept" more than 10. Replace the epoxy with a 10/32" nut (or the little nut that came with the bullet button if you bought one) and you're just as good to go with respect to the wording of the law (IANAL). The only features that may be problematic in the sense they can't be easily added/removed are the bayonet mount (whatever that is, I've never seen one, all I have is a bayonete lug) and threaded barrel. I linked to the law earlier in this thread; here it is again so you can do your own search and confirm: Article 265 - Penal Law - Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapons Also, as others have indicated, while you may want to test this to confirm it works for your gun, don't do anything (especially permanent) until and unless the lawsuits don't succeed by registration deadline time.
    Last edited by KarsEutoksur; 05-24-2013 at 02:27 PM.
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