NY Secession Thread

[ChrisWNY]

So I spend a considerable amount of time daydreaming of what NY could be like without NYC attached, whether NYC become its own exclusive district, or a separate State. We're all well aware of how NYC brings the rest of the State down politically, vomiting legislation that does not in any way mesh with the demographics and political makeup of Upstate NY. Demographically, Upstate NY is the opposite of downstate in many ways. Much of NYS is sparsely populated and rural, unlike NYC which is one of the most densely populated cities in the world.

So let's dive into secession, splitting Upstate from Downstate. Here's a map showing what it might look like:



NYC itself has considered seceding from the rest of the State, the motivation is not 100% rooted in the Upstate portion of NYS. Throughout history secession has been a topic of discussion in NY. Bills have in fact been introduced within the NY legislature reviving the referendum for secession, some quite recent.

So what always stops this ball from rolling? Can Upstate survive financially without NYC (Fumeturd has claimed NYC brings in $11 billion more than it takes out of the State economy)? I would imagine there would be a tremendous amount of work involved in a secession - political restructuring, re-districting, writing new laws, etc. etc. etc.

This topic has been brought up in so many different threads, so I thought it would be nice to have a thread dedicated to this very topic. We now know that a vast majority of Upstate Counties went strongly in favor of Astorino, so now is a great time to discuss secession in more detail. I believe secession is feasible, but it would take a think tank of brilliant individuals to help figure it all out.

What would you name the new "seceded" Upstate portion of NY? What would you immediately change policy-wise (yes, go into detail regarding gun laws)? What sort of ideas do you have for how Upstate would survive financially without NYC being part of the same State economy? Seceding in the traditional sense is likely not the way forward, because we wouldn't want a 51st State nationally. The key may be re-districting so that NYC would become its own self-sufficient district, similar to DC.

[Phazer]

What would you name the new "seceded" Upstate portion of NY?

Simple. Since the greater mass of New York would be returning to first principles. The new state should appropriately be called "New Amsterdam."

What would you immediately change policy-wise (yes, go into detail regarding gun laws)? What sort of ideas do you have for how Upstate would survive financially without NYC being part of the same State economy?

Most things would probably work themselves out in the New Amsterdam state legislature. The new state would likely be Libertarian, if not constitutionally Conservative, in philosophy. BUT...you'd need some way to prevent Albany, Rochester, and Buffalo from becoming the new Liberal bastions that drive the politics of the new territory.

[ChrisWNY]

Simple. Since the greater mass of New York would be returning to first principles. The new state should appropriately be called "New Amsterdam."


Most things would probably work themselves out in the New Amsterdam state legislature. The new state would likely be Libertarian, if not constitutionally Conservative, in philosophy. BUT...you'd need some way to prevent Albany, Rochester, and Buffalo from becoming the new Liberal bastions that drive the politics of the new territory.

I think Buffalo, Rochester, and Albany combined don't even come close to approaching the leftist/statist stronghold of NYC. Sans NYC, the rest of NYS, at least in my opinion, is similar (demographically) to Ohio or PA.

[epthorn]

Dreams are fun, but this is a waste of time that could be better spent reloading old shells.

Reality is that we can't get people to take 30 minutes out of their day to vote and you're hypothesizing about a political movement that hasn't happened since 1863 due to the Civil War and would be immense requiring not only a huge political movement within the state- that isn't there, at all- but congressional approval.

[spat]

The gun laws part is easy, none except a provision preventing localities from enacting any either. The federal restrictions are already far too burdensome, no need to add any more.

[Phazer]

I think Buffalo, Rochester, and Albany combined don't even come close to approaching the leftist/statist stronghold of NYC. Sans NYC, the rest of NYS, at least in my opinion, is similar (demographically) to Ohio or PA.

I'll defer to you on this matter. I don't have a really good feel for the politics of those states. But, I've seen too many large municipalities, even in deep red states (i.e. Houston and Austin), become bases of Liberal power.

[Cuomostein]

Simple. Since the greater mass of New York would be returning to first principles. The new state should appropriately be called "New Amsterdam."


Most things would probably work themselves out in the New Amsterdam state legislature. The new state would likely be Libertarian, if not constitutionally Conservative, in philosophy. BUT...you'd need some way to prevent Albany, Rochester, and Buffalo from becoming the new Liberal bastions that drive the politics of the new territory.

What you do is what NH has done, they have 400 Assembly seats for 1.3 million population State. That's 1 politician per 3,300 residents. Right now in NYS we have 127,000 citizens who are represented by just 1 person. It's insane! No wonder NYC dominates the Assembly.

So say New Amsterdam has 5 million total population, let's at least make 1 representative per 20k people. So 250 seats in the Assembly, around 100 for Senate (1 senator per 50k people in the district) will do and 1 governor.

[57cal]

Simple, red section to be called New York state and blue nyc , anus or armpit district. Nys would have to be grow its economy through natural resources and hang its hat on simpler blue collar times. Hardest part would be to excile all them relocated libs, freeloaders, lazy slugs that have their hand out throughout nys at present time and repatriat them back to nyc, armpit or anus. Fuac

[aardvarkjff]

I agree that Upstate is homogenous enough to warrant a separate state. Here is what I think needs to be looked at:

1) Can the people currently working here keep the same pay/benefits they have now. (The Unions are big everywhere and will not support splitting if their members are going to lose power. So can their current "lifestyle" be preserved for now. That will be the same for every business in New Amsterdam (NA).
2) What is the cost for losing the NYC funds. Next, if we open fracking, that would be a boon to NA. How long until we could develop that industry into a revenue generating machine.
3) What bureacratic crap can be eliminated that would benefit our new state? What current gov't functions can be eliminated? Will we require all menus to include calorie and fat counts? Will we require all gas cans to be CARB compliant? Thing of all the stupid $hit we endure daily and can it be gotten rid of?
4) What does our new Constitution look like? How is our Govt organized? Term limits? What constitutes a majority?
5) Do we need an income tax? Sales Tax? If so, what are the rates? Will they actually be less than what we have now?
6) What do the citizens need to do for the state? Will a citizen militia be allowed?
7) Carrying the baggage of being part of NYS, what can we do to IMMEDIATELY start being competative with the other states?

[Sthomas]

Dreams are fun, but this is a waste of time that could be better spent reloading old shells.

Reality is that we can't get people to take 30 minutes out of their day to vote and you're hypothesizing about a political movement that hasn't happened since 1863 due to the Civil War and would be immense requiring not only a huge political movement within the state- that isn't there, at all- but congressional approval.

I agree, when only an approximate 30-45% of the population show up to the voting booths, you'll never see any momentum behind this idea. I would love to see it happen, but before it does we need about 90-95% voting and pissed off because they still didn't gain the majority past NYC.

[aardvarkjff]

BUT...you'd need some way to prevent Albany, Rochester, and Buffalo from becoming the new Liberal bastions that drive the politics of the new territory.

Simple, make the new assembly's threshold to pass laws at 65%. That way any laws that are passed represent the majority of the citizens. That would make "back room" deals more difficult/costly and reduce the chances that the libs will take power.

For the Senate, any city/metropolitan area that reaches 1 million people will split the county senator between 1 for the metro area and the other for the "rest of the county". Again this will not allow the larger cities to overrule their neighbors.

Just some ideas to make sure in another 250 years we are not back in the same boat.

[ChrisWNY]

I agree, when only an approximate 30-45% of the population show up to the voting booths, you'll never see any momentum behind this idea. I would love to see it happen, but before it does we need about 90-95% voting and pissed off because they still didn't gain the majority past NYC.

Yeah I can't argue when it comes to voter turnout. Less than 3.5 million votes were cast this election. Pathetic. Upstate/Downstate secession *could* be seen as a mutual break-up, perhaps both areas would toss in a majority vote to proceed with secession. Admittedly I have no idea because it's never gotten that far. I would think Congress would rubber stamp something that has gone through a voter referendum/approval process within an individual State. If NYC became a district like DC, it wouldn't change the State count anyway. An odd number of stars on the flag would not be necessary.

[Phazer]

2) What is the cost for losing the NYC funds. Next, if we open fracking, that would be a boon to NA. How long until we could develop that industry into a revenue generating machine.

How fast? Very fast!

The New Amsterdam legislature could offer a very business-friendly climate. It could set tax policies that are 180-degrees apart from New York. For example: No corporate taxes for any business that employs at least 1000 people in an energy-producing industry. Major corporations would rush into the territory, rapidly explore and set up shop. Thousands could be employed directly in the industry producing the fuel. Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, could be employed in industries supporting the new energy sector in New Amsterdam (such as: Lodging, housing, infrastructure construction, entertainment, and food...just to name a mere few).

[Hardrada]

New Oberoen or New Liberty.

1. A constitution that clearly states that ALL guns, past present and future are protected and all federal laws are void when it comes to guns. Full auto is a complete "GO". Permits are illegal for all rights protected under the constitution.
2. Traveling in the common means of the day is hereby granted a protected right. No licenses shall be issued
3. No welfare. It is illegal
4. This is 100% ripped from Karl Deninger but it's great stuff

An Act to redress the imbalances in the economy related to health care products and services, enforce the law, improve patient outcomes, enhance access to treatment modalities, decrease costs and open competition in the Medical Industry.
Article I – Competition

1. The Sherman, Clayton and Robinson-Patman Acts shall apply to medical commodities, services and related products without exception, including but not limited to pharmaceuticals, hospital services, clinical services, medical devices, implements, drugs and supplies, financial services such as payment plans and health insurance or any other service or good used or provided for the purpose of promoting health, treating or diagnosing disease, provided that said goods, products or services are marketed, sold, advertised or used anywhere inside the United States and its territories.
2. Medical providers shall post via conspicuous method and bill at a level price for their services to all users of like kind and quantity without regard to the means of payment, subject only to reasonably-defensible discounts for volume of service or product rendered or sold.
3. All State CON laws and other regulations that serve to prevent, deter, bar or impair medical good or service providers from entrance or exit to or from a market area, where said facilities do or may serve customers on an interstate basis, are hereby preempted and void under the Interstate Commerce Clause to the US Constitution.
4. The doctrine of first sale shall be applied to all medical and health-related commodities, pharmaceuticals, supplies and goods, including but not limited to drugs, medical devices, implements and health-related products, provided that such goods are truthfully and lawfully labeled as to their origin, manufacturer and contents, irrespective of their point of original purchase.
5. No manufacturer, distributor or other seller of medical goods or commodities may prohibit by contract or other provision the effects of Article I Section 4, and any such clause in existing contracts for sale are hereby declared void as a violation of public policy.
6. Medical goods and commodities permitted or lawfully offered for sale in nations and territories other than the United States may be imported, marketed and sold for consumption and use in the United States irrespective of FDA approval provided that any drug, device, implement or commodity not approved by the FDA shall be conspicuously labeled that it does not have FDA approval in no less than 14 point white print on a black background on all bulk and, where applicable, individual use or dispensed packages. All such unapproved drugs, devices, implements and commodities shall bear or have enclosed with their packaging truthful information as to their exact contents, purity, method of action, expected benefits and known risks and side effects of its use. All such unapproved drugs, devices, implements and commodities shall be explicitly disclosed to the consumer before use or administration by any licensed medical facility or physician and an explicit release shall be obtained from said consumer in advance of the use of such unapproved drugs, devices, implements or commodities.

Article II — Access To Medical Care And Records

1. EMTALA is hereby repealed.
2. Privately-run and operated medical clearing firms are hereby authorized who citizens and visitors to the United States may register with to document verifiable means of coverage or payment for potential medical services and products. These firms shall be regulated only as to privacy of information maintained.
3. Such registration shall include not only insurance coverage by traditional health insurance firms but also registration of escrowed funds or other unencumbered and liquid assets available for disbursement in the event of unplanned and emergency medical expense.
4. Medical providers may query any such registry only for a bona-fide purpose of determining whether a proposed procedure is covered for payment, and shall not issue more than one query per patient, per medical incident without that patient or their agent's explicit approval.
5. Registries shall not provide information on coverage or escrowed and liquid limits beyond a response indicating whether the explicit and queried amount proposed to be billed is or is not covered.
6. Patients shall own all records in any such registry, including the record of all inquiries and shall have a right of inspection of any such records during reasonable business hours and by reasonable means.
7. Medical records shall be the property of the consumer to whom they pertain, and shall be provided to and may be maintained by the consumer upon his or her reasonable request. No provider shall provide access to or permit the copying of any such record to any third party without the explicit authorization of the consumer or his or her lawful representative, except where applicable statute mandates the disclosure of said records such as in the case of communicable disease or mandatory reporting statutes.
8. A registry or medical provider that violates any provision of this section shall be liable for all damages that a consumer shall suffer, but not less than $25,000 (twenty-five thousand dollars US) per incident in liquidated damages if the actual amount of damages shall be less.
9. EMS providers and systems shall maintain a registry of charitable hospitals and other providers of medical care willing to provide services to those who have no verifiable or actual means of payment so as to be able to expeditiously make decisions on transport of indigent patients, and shall update their listing of such available care facilities not less than once daily.

Article III – Enforcement

1. Consumers, employers or other parties harmed by violations of this act shall have a private right of recovery for all harm sustained in triplicate, but not less than five thousand dollars ($5,000) for each occurrence.
2. Each day that any such violation occurs shall constitute a separate and distinct civil offense.
3. Willful and intentional violations of consumer privacy, or any act of conspiracy between parties to violate any provision of this act shall be a Federal Felony Criminal Offense punished by not less than 2 nor more than 20 years of confinement and a fine of not less than $10,000 or more than $100,000 for each count, except that if permanent physical injury shall occur to any person as a consequence of said violation the penalty shall be not less than 10 nor more than 25 years of confinement and a fine of not less than $50,000 nor more than $250,000 for each count, and if death to any person shall occur as a consequence of said violation the penalty shall be not less than 25 years to life of confinement and not less than $100,000 nor more than $2,000,000 for each count.

5. ALL drugs considered banned by federal law are now 100% legal. (this takes care of drug gangs)
6. Prostitution is now legal in all non-residential areas
7. Gambling is 100% legal

I'll hold off and read some other ideas before continuing.

8. No state income tax. Taxation is based on consumption under the fair tax. No consumable food or water can be taxed. No clothing item can be taxed. All other can be taxed no greater than 9% FOREVER.
9. Marriage laws are illegal. Government may not enact a law making marriage legal or illegal for any demographic or any belief. Government may not enact any law that taxes or relieves any people joined in marriage. This means you can marry anyone you want by virtue of saying "we're married" or have a ceremony or what ever. It also places the purview of Marriage as a religious event back into the hands of those places of worship.

[eagleridge357]

Offer tax free status for 5 years to all firearm manufacturers in the country if they move to Newly Named State, after that, a low yearly tax. Offer all sporting goods manufacturers the same, and all ammunition makers the same. Allow anyone to have a firearm of any kind. Create a new state Constitution that allows an armed militia and make laws to restrict federal laws from annoying or de-Righting firearm-related businesses and law-abiding citizens. Hold an annual contest open to all citizens of the USA to suggest new ways to fund the state's coffers, one of the prizes being complete paid college education to all members of the winner's family, and their children and grand-children. Lure the best legal minds and the best conservative thinkers to take up residency, subsidize higher education, and pass laws to permanently restrict Common Core and any other such communist mind-rot from ever taking seed in the Newly Named State. Pass a law forbidding any resident of NYC to enter the state for any reason other than to transit quickly to get to a neighboring state. And make sure they put all bats, knives, glass, rods, toxins, etc into the locked trunk until the destination is reached.

[aardvarkjff]

Gun Laws: Shall issue, the person is licensed only, they can buy whatever, but it will not be on any permit/list. If there is any issue, they can see if you are a permit holder and act accordingly. Reciprocity with all states.

Schools: gun safety will be taught in all elementary schools at least twice in grades 2-6 (Eddie Eagle), Safe gun handling in middle school, and basic marksmanship in high school. Parents can elect to opt out if desired.

There will be stand your ground laws. Responsible open carry. Any proposed gun restricting legislation will be reviewed under strict scrutiny and that determination made PRIOR to any passage.

Each county sheriff shall have the right to create, train, and maintain ready an unpaid volunteer force that can be "activated" to assist, under the sheriff's watch, in any emergency or other need. The new state shall have the right to call forth any "trained" volunteers to aid in defense of the state if needed for whatever reason. (Should Canada attack or whatever....).

There will be no right for any municipality in the new state to pass any gun laws that are in violation of the citizen's rights and any proposal will be subject to strict scrutiny FIRST.

[aardvarkjff]

As others have said, no common core, our state will develop a cirriculum of our own. Schools are encourage to celebrate.... (please forgive me....) Christmas (gasp), Halloween, Thanksgiving, etc.

NO for any aid to non state citizens in our colleges.

Tax breaks (if we even have an income tax) for married people. Make raising a family a great thing and financially possible.

[Dr. Evil]

What ever I need to do to help move this forward even if it is a pipe dream, let me know.

[Hardrada]

What ever I need to do to help move this forward even if it is a pipe dream, let me know.

This is all about making people feel like they are not in the popular consensus. Once you achieve that momentum.. it's all smooth sailing from that point in.
I believe I know how to do this. It will take a state wide (SANS NYC+5) effort to convince people to do it. NYC+5 gets the reverse propaganda. We want to make them hate us so they want to split for different reasons. "Oceana has always been at war....".. you get the idea.

[blackpowdershooter30]

Voting should be electoral college in this state each county is a point and you have to win the majority of the counties to win

[spat]

Voting should be electoral college in this state each county is a point and you have to win the majority of the counties to win

Nah, too easily manipulated. Just go back to the way things were originally. Only landowners could vote.

[haystack677]

I'm pretty sure nows a good time to get the movement rolling. Divide NYS into two States New Amsterdam & New York - Home Probably will never happen, but I still got some fight in me. Lets give it a shot!

[Phazer]

I'd have to move. But, that'd be alright. Move 30 miles into free territory. Sounds good to me.

[LINY]

Whoa whoa whoa- stop the presses

Mind you I haven't read a single word or post beyond your map (which isn't my style, at all, and I most definitely will as soon as I post this) so I'll reserve the right to rethink these comments.... but my gut reaction was "Oh HELLLLL No"

Despite the percentages from my county yesterday I guaran-frickin-tee that there is less of a chance that even the liberals here in Nassau, let alone Suffolk, could EVER muster enough votes to become part of NYC rather than NYS....... than there'd be of Cuomo repealing his own SAFE act to "reach across the aisle" to demonstrate that we really are "at the end of the day, upstate and downstate, we are one state. we are one state. we are black, white, and brown, we are one state. we are rich, we are poor, we are one state. we are Liberals and Libertarians, we are one state. we believe in the absolutely inalienable rights of all minorities- whether racial, religious, OR political etc ; We ARE one state".....

[Robhimself]

To my knowledge, most of the electricity and drinking water, groceries and lots of other products are sent there. The relationship can easily be symbiotic instead of parasitic like it currently is. I feel like a good porion of money earned in NYC is taken out of state anyway to CT and NJ. Instead of a state, couldn't they become a district?