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Thread: .22 for accuracy

  1. #1
    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Default .22 for accuracy

    Couple of other threads prompted me to start this one. I only own one rifle. A .22 that was my first gun at around age 13-14.
    I have been thinking about getting more into a rifle to shoot for accuracy. Just something to challenge myself with. To give me a break once in a while from my Pistols. Maybe do some chicken shoots.
    I have this Winchester model 67A with the long barrel. Could I trick this out any to get some decent .22 range accuracy from it?
    Just looking to have a little fun and develop some rifle proficiency. If I get hooked I can always get into something more sophisticated and different in caliber.

    Thoughts and suggestions?DSCN6442.jpgDSCN6443.jpg

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    Get match ammo.

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    Major RSBH44's Avatar
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    Get a decent scope, try a few different types of ammo to see what it likes best and have at it. Those older single shot rifles were fairly accurate. The only way to find out for sure is to get out and play with it!!
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    Major varmint's Avatar
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    I would take it apart and clean it well. Purchase a few different brands of ammunition, I have never seen one that would not shoot. I would not drill and tap your Winchester.

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    Major kev74's Avatar
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    As stated above, a good cleaning then find out what ammo it likes. A scope would help, but I wouldn't mount one if it meant drilling holes in the gun.

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    OK Match ammo seems like a reasonable conclusion.
    I keep the rifle very clean and well cared for. Although it has not been fired in 44 years. Certainly is not worn out. Maybe not even broken in!! LOL
    I have heard that it is a fairly accurate rifle. Too long ago for me to remember, and I was just interested in hitting squirrels back then.
    I would prefer to be able to return it to it's original configuration. No way to scope it without drill and tapping?
    Thanks for replies.

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    Major RandallOfLegend's Avatar
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    You are missing a very important item. At what range? 22lr has significant drop off past 50 yards with standard ammunition. With a 25 yard zero (the standard) you have 6 inches of drop at 100 yards, 12 inches at 125 yards, and 21 inches at 150 yards. With a standard 1/4 MOA scope, thats 22 clicks, 37 clicks, and 53 clicks on the scope. I was just reading from my scope dope table.

    I have not yet tried, but subsonic ammo may be more accurate at longer ranges. 22lr transitions to subsonic around 50 yards, and the transonic break can have some odd effects. Either way, you will need bullets that are blemish free, or match grade. If you are going out with some ammo that is loose in a box, you may want to hand sort the ammo and try to get 50-100 good ones.

    That being said, with my tech sights I can shoot quarter sized groups at 25 yards from a bench + front rest. With a 4x32 I can cloverleaf. But as the range increases other factors come in to play. It is rather hard to shoot quarter sized groups at 50 yards without magnification and some good shooting mechanics.
    Last edited by RandallOfLegend; 05-25-2013 at 11:38 PM. Reason: Fixed speed of sound range
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    Great discussion!

    .22s are my favorite, from shorts to WMR.
    Drummer, you should keep that hierloom in premo condition and not tap for a scope, though I think you'll need one for playing around. I suggest you find yourself an oldie-but-goodie inexpensive rifle to mount a scope to. They can be had for the buck-sevety-five range and MANY old models made in the gazillions have good solid histories of being trouble-free tack drivers. It won't sting to have that one tapped for a scope mount, and you'll likely be able to sell it later (if you chose to) for what you paid for her.
    -Hell, these days you'll spend more on ammo for her than the cost of the gun the first two weeks you have her!

    Quote Originally Posted by RandallOfLegend
    22lr transitions to subsonic around 25 yards, and the transonic break can have some odd effects.
    Randall, what exactly is "subsonic" speed wise, and is there a formula that can help "roughly" predict at what distance a given wieght & fsp a high velocity round will cross that speed threshold?
    What happens; tumbling and such?

    I've read some things on the web (-always so contradictory, and you can never trust the source...), but never actually discussed it with anyone on a forum.
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    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandallOfLegend View Post
    You are missing a very important item. At what range? 22lr has significant drop off past 50 yards with standard ammunition. With a 25 yard zero (the standard) you have 6 inches of drop at 100 yards, 12 inches at 125 yards, and 21 inches at 150 yards. With a standard 1/4 MOA scope, thats 22 clicks, 37 clicks, and 53 clicks on the scope. I was just reading from my scope dope table.

    I have not yet tried, but subsonic ammo may be more accurate at longer ranges. 22lr transitions to subsonic around 25 yards, and the transonic break can have some odd effects. Either way, you will need bullets that are blemish free, or match grade. If you are going out with some ammo that is loose in a box, you may want to hand sort the ammo and try to get 50-100 good ones.

    That being said, with my tech sights I can shoot quarter sized groups at 25 yards from a bench + front rest. With a 4x32 I can cloverleaf. But as the range increases other factors come in to play. It is rather hard to shoot quarter sized groups at 50 yards without magnification and some good shooting mechanics.
    Well this subject matter certainly kicks things up a notch or two. Getting an education for sure. What are Tech. sights? If I do not go with a scope is there a different sight system I could install? About the only thing I shoot in my .22 pistol is CCI Mini Mag 40Gr. Can anyone suggest what to look for in ammo? I think it would be cool if I could hit something out to 75 yards. Not realistic? Thank you.

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    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SterlingRex View Post
    Great discussion!

    .22s are my favorite, from shorts to WMR.
    Drummer, you should keep that hierloom in premo condition and not tap for a scope, though I think you'll need one for playing around. I suggest you find yourself an oldie-but-goodie inexpensive rifle to mount a scope to. They can be had for the buck-sevety-five range and MANY old models made in the gazillions have good solid histories of being trouble-free tack drivers. It won't sting to have that one tapped for a scope mount, and you'll likely be able to sell it later (if you chose to) for what you paid for her.
    -Hell, these days you'll spend more on ammo for her than the cost of the gun the first two weeks you have her!


    Randall, what exactly is "subsonic" speed wise, and is there a formula that can help "roughly" predict at what distance a given wieght & fsp a high velocity round will cross that speed threshold?
    What happens; tumbling and such?

    I've read some things on the web (-always so contradictory, and you can never trust the source...), but never actually discussed it with anyone on a forum.
    Yes, I do and will keep it in great condition. However I really do not think I want to look for another rifle if the one I have has some inherent accuracy to it. Though I have kept this rifle through the years I really am not a collector. I have this one and would like to use it if it is a capable gun.

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    You don't need to clean your 22. Only clean it when it does not function and or looses accuracy. They are more accurate after being shot. You will wear out the barrel much faster in them cleaning all the time also.

    If i were you i would not modify my childhood rifle any. I would spend a few hundred bucks and pick something up dedicated to target shooting. Best bang for the buck is a Kimber 82G from the CMP. They are new unused and excellent target rifles. Best $425 you will ever spend I promise you that. I wouldn't be too scared of them being listed as "rusty". I have one that was listed that way and I'll be damned if I can find any rust.

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    Major RSBH44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildman1024 View Post
    You don't need to clean your 22. Only clean it when it does not function and or looses accuracy. They are more accurate after being shot. You will wear out the barrel much faster in them cleaning all the time also..
    +1 on this. I don't clean any on my 22's unless that start having function issues. Hell, I have an older model 10/22 carbine that I haven't cleaned in over 5 years. For a carbine it's accuracy out to 50 yrds. is impressive.
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    I have about twenty old 22 caliber rifles, the 67A boys model being the newest to me. I wouldn't fabricate any of them by adding a sling or drilling & taping for a scope. The Winchester 67As sold for $5 new in the early forties and they sold for $18 at the end of the line in 1960. On theauction sites they are going for close to $300, a couple of gun shops are asking close to $500 for them, modify it and you'd decrease the value tremendoucly.

    I buy most of my 22s from private sales which is still legal to do a face to face gun sale here in Washington State (pistols, rifles & shotguns), Some I've bought at pawn shops and a few at gun shows & on the gun auctions on the computer.
    When I buy old used guns I look at the condition and if it has been modified. I like to keep my cost to less then $175 for an older 22 rifle. There is a Winchester 69 22 bolt action at a pawn shop I stop by at, they are asking $219. Next week when I make my rounds if they'll take $175 it will go into my collection.

    There are several old 22 rimfire rifles out there that can be bought that have the grooved recievers that mount a scope. I have several old Mossbergs that have grooved recievers that I bought for around $150. They can be found in decent shape and no gun smith work needed to mount a scope, I have several 22s with 1" rifle scopes monted on them, One has a 4 power Weaver, and has a 3X9 Redfield and another has a 2X7 Redfield. I can drive tacks with these old Mossbergs, I've killed thousands of gray squirrels back there in New York with them, all head shots. My son has shot about the same.
    A good used Mossberg, a used Redfield 3X9 and a new scope mount for a grooved reciever can be bought for about $275 and still be worth every penny you spent on the set up. And if you buy the right model of 22 cheap enough you'll make a few bucks on it if you decide to dispose of it. I have an old Winchester model 131 that I bought for less then a hundred bucks in decent shape with a grooved reciever that I mounted a scope on that is a nice shooter as well.

    If you go this route you might have to get the see through sights to get the rifle scope high enough so you won't have to take the back sight out to mount the scope. I see a lot of old 22s out there with the back sight missing because they took it off to mount a scope and sold the rifle & kept the scope & scope mount.

    I aways take an old 22 when I go shooting to plink with, I shoot clay pigeons on the sand bank, shoot & see targets and them plastic roll around targets. It makes for a fun afternoon.
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    Major varmint's Avatar
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    Clean your rifle....RIGHT NOW!

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    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Would have responded sooner but I was cleaning the 67A,
    Well one thing seems to be unanimous. " Don't mess with the rifle". I agree. So, I guess the next thing to do is take it out and shoot it with stock sights and see what it does. Thanks to all for helping out.
    Should I get the bug I will look into investing in another rifle.
    So what should I expect from it in regards to Accuracy? Say at 50 yards.
    Hey, just what is a "Chicken Shoot" ?

  16. #16
    Major varmint's Avatar
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    1/4" at 50 yards

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    Major RandallOfLegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SterlingRex View Post
    Randall, what exactly is "subsonic" speed wise, and is there a formula that can help "roughly" predict at what distance a given wieght & fsp a high velocity round will cross that speed threshold?
    What happens; tumbling and such?

    I've read some things on the web (-always so contradictory, and you can never trust the source...), but never actually discussed it with anyone on a forum.
    Speed of sound at sea level and 60 deg F is around 1100 Feet per second. It varies with local temperature and altitude. For ballistic calculators I like JBM - Calculations - Trajectory . It has a library of bullets, and I have found the "dope" tables I can generate are "close enough". In reality range experience with a given ammo and rifle is required for "first shot accuracy".

    During sonic flight a bullet will have a shock wave just a little bit in front of the nose (bow shock). But in the transonic range ( Mach numbers 0.8 to 1.0) you can get some areas of the bullet that are sonic, and others that are not. (check out the link).

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...w_patterns.svg

    This can cause the bullet to yaw or pitch slightly, causing the trajectory to be off. Thankfully bullets have spin, and the rotation helps to prevent the bullet from yawing/pitching or tumbling. The fancy term is "conservation of angular momentum". Either way, you may find that many match cartridges are designed to be fired at less than 1100 FPS to avoid the sonic to subsonic transition. I managed to get some subsonic Aguila recently, and I can't wait to test out their accuracy over longer distance. I expect their drop to be significant comparatively.

    Bench rest shooters in long range competitions prefer bullets that stay sonic all the way to the target. Shorter range shooters like subsonic, although it may be more of a recoil thing than accuracy. I don't shoot competitively, I just have a degree in rocket science (literally).
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    Major RandallOfLegend's Avatar
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    Drummer,

    Is their a rail on that rifle for a scope attachment? I can't tell from the photos. When I mentioned Tech Sights I was talking about this.

    Tech-SIGHTS Precision Shooting Accessories

    I have a Marlin 795 with these on it. They are amazing. Worth the price if you love to shoot irons. If you are looking for very good accuracy over say 50 yards, you will need at least a 3-9 x 32 scope. 3-9 x 40 with adjustable focus would be even better. But you might need a new rifle, and a scope like that would probably run at minimum $100.

    I would start out by testing yourself off a bench at 25 yards. If you can shoot quarter sized groups with 10 shots at 25 yards you can either move to longer ranges, or try to shoot one ragged hole / cloverleaf. Then I would move to longer ranges.

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    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandallOfLegend View Post
    Drummer,

    Is their a rail on that rifle for a scope attachment? I can't tell from the photos. When I mentioned Tech Sights I was talking about this.

    Tech-SIGHTS Precision Shooting Accessories

    I have a Marlin 795 with these on it. They are amazing. Worth the price if you love to shoot irons. If you are looking for very good accuracy over say 50 yards, you will need at least a 3-9 x 32 scope. 3-9 x 40 with adjustable focus would be even better. But you might need a new rifle, and a scope like that would probably run at minimum $100.

    I would start out by testing yourself off a bench at 25 yards. If you can shoot quarter sized groups with 10 shots at 25 yards you can either move to longer ranges, or try to shoot one ragged hole / cloverleaf. Then I would move to longer ranges.
    I am embarrassed to say this but I really can't tell how that rear sight is attached! Could the base portion be dove tailed like the front sight? It is adjustable for elevation by lifting the upper portion and then sliding a sawtooth type piece under it. Top piece is like a spring steel.
    If it is dovetailed maybe one of the sights you like you have could be made to work in the Dove tail slot?
    No rail for scope on the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandallOfLegend View Post
    Drummer,

    Is their a rail on that rifle for a scope attachment? I can't tell from the photos. When I mentioned Tech Sights I was talking about this.

    Tech-SIGHTS Precision Shooting Accessories

    I have a Marlin 795 with these on it. They are amazing. Worth the price if you love to shoot irons. If you are looking for very good accuracy over say 50 yards, you will need at least a 3-9 x 32 scope. 3-9 x 40 with adjustable focus would be even better. But you might need a new rifle, and a scope like that would probably run at minimum $100.

    I would start out by testing yourself off a bench at 25 yards. If you can shoot quarter sized groups with 10 shots at 25 yards you can either move to longer ranges, or try to shoot one ragged hole / cloverleaf. Then I would move to longer ranges.
    I am embarrassed to say this but I really can't tell how that rear sight is attached! Could the base portion be dove tailed like the front sight? It is adjustable for elevation by lifting the upper portion and then sliding a sawtooth type piece under it. Top piece is like a spring steel.
    If it is dovetailed maybe one of the sights you like you have could be made to work in the Dove tail slot?
    No rail for scope on the rifle.
    I believe the original is called a " Leaf Sight"

  21. #21
    Major RandallOfLegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Different Drummer View Post
    I am embarrassed to say this but I really can't tell how that rear sight is attached! Could the base portion be dove tailed like the front sight? It is adjustable for elevation by lifting the upper portion and then sliding a sawtooth type piece under it. Top piece is like a spring steel.
    If it is dovetailed maybe one of the sights you like you have could be made to work in the Dove tail slot?
    No rail for scope on the rifle.
    I believe the original is called a " Leaf Sight"
    It's a dovetail, and the windage is adjusted by tapping it with a punch. Leaf/Buckhorn/Blade and notch, sights are not known for their long range accuracy as far as bench shooting goes. Assuming you have a good sight picture, I would expect you could get 2-3 inches from a bench at 50 yards, and at best 1 inch at 25 yards. You would need to have a very consistent cheek weld, since parallax and lighting are big issues with those types of sights.

    If you are looking into accuracy on the cheap from a 22. I recommend a stock Marlin 795 ($150) with a good scope. Marlin is known to have some of the best stock barrels.

  22. #22
    Major HighlandLofts's Avatar
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    I have an old Marlin model882 in 22mag and a new Marlin 17HMR stainless with the synthetic stock. This 17HMR isa highly accurate rimfire cartridge out to two hundred yards on a calm day, when you hit a small size animal like a squirrel or rabbit it does a lot of damage. I'm happy that I bought it, I have a 6 to 18 power scope on it.
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    I recommend the savage I just put for sale....

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