Wegmans on Caulkins rd (what would you do?)
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  1. #1
    Sergeant Coreguy's Avatar
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    Default Wegmans on Caulkins rd (what would you do?)

    Crews Respond to Wegmans for Reported Stabbing; Three Cut - YNN, Your News Now

    My sister in law works here.... Girl got beat and then stabbed(to death we'll see) while lying on her stomach... I'm assuming two of the three cut were people trying to help.

    Since I visit this store regularly I posed this question to myself.... What would've I done...carrying....

    Maybe Dave has some input on this?
    God, Family, and the pursuit of armed self-defense!

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  3. #2
    Administrator Jeff's Avatar
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    Depends on the situation. There are zero details at the moment.
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  4. #3
    Sergeant Coreguy's Avatar
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    AFAIK it was a domestic male on female. Male beat then stabbed her repeatedly.
    God, Family, and the pursuit of armed self-defense!

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    Captain Brad@AST's Avatar
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    They knew each other, and she was stabbed MANY MANY times around her face and neck, that seems like deadly physical force to me.

    I feel worse for the person who tried to help her only to get stabbed and hospitalized as well. Blood born pathogens are scary.

    I stopped by the store on my way home tonight, lot was full of cops, and the reporter told me what had happened. The first thing that ran through my mind is what the hell would I do.
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    Major RDFABSREP's Avatar
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    It's so depressing that we'd have to think (as New Yorkers) if we saw this happening and were armed, could we pull the trigger without going to prison... This is what our society has pushed us to.
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    What's your rush, now? Everyone will have his day to die." -APC

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  8. #6
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    Article 35 on the use of deady physical force states in part:
    - deadly force should only be used when there is a clear and imminent threat to your life, anothers life, or risk of serious physical harm.

    But you also have a duty to retreat If you can with " Complete Personal Safety". Moraly I'd be driven to interveen in some way.

  9. #7
    Colonel Tim1's Avatar
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    The duty to retreat only comes into play if you can retreat with "complete safety as to yourself and others". You do not have to stand idly by while someone is murdered just because you can retreat.

    Here's the actual law. Read it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I've placed emphasis on the duty to retreat section.

    S 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
    1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use
    physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably
    believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from
    what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful
    physical force by such other person, unless:
    (a) The latter`s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with intent
    to cause physical injury to another person; or
    (b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his
    use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if he has withdrawn
    from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such
    other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the
    use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force; or
    (c) The physical force involved is he product of a combat by
    agreement not specifically authorized by law.
    2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
    under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
    (a) He reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to
    use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not
    use deadly physical force if he knows that he can with complete safety
    as to himself and others avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating
    ;
    except that he is under no duty to retreat if he is:
    (i) in his dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
    (ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
    officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
    section 35.30; or
    (b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or
    attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or
    robbery; or
    (c) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or
    attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the
    use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
    section 35.20.
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    Major tinker's Avatar
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    There was a robbery at knife point at this Wegmans last year, it didn't get much news though. I am curious to find out the rest of the story.

  11. #9
    Colonel av8r's Avatar
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    Think about this....

    You're there, armed and you see it going down. You decide to retreat. People die or are seriously injured. Someone saw you there, knows you carry and mentions to the investigators that they saw you walk away. People have been prosecuted for not stepping in. Good Samaritan laws are supposed to help CYA in the event you try to help, but...seems like either way is a mine field.
    "An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject"

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    General Twogunwilly's Avatar
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    In the store even, wow.I'd have to intervene somehow. I couldn't walk away, anything that could be used as a weapon would be in my hand and one of us is about to get hurt bad, very very bad.
    Safety first, never last
    Have a future, not a past.

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    Colonel Baby Kaboomer's Avatar
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    My gut reaction would be to help...who wouldn't? I'd like to think that, if I felt the situation warranted it, I would draw and fire. I'm not sure that I wouldn't hesitate, though, thinking about the $20,000 jug of milk I was about to buy.

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    General RayKnobs's Avatar
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  15. #13
    Sergeant mich3210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Kaboomer View Post
    My gut reaction would be to help...who wouldn't? I'd like to think that, if I felt the situation warranted it, I would draw and fire. I'm not sure that I wouldn't hesitate, though, thinking about the $20,000 jug of milk I was about to buy.
    I think a lot of us would hesitate, I know I would. But I too would like to think I would do what's necessary based on the situation. The laws in New York aren't necessarily clear, and we all know we'd be taking a chance. And even if you get through/ passed the chance of a criminal trial, there's still the chance of a civil trial.

    Being a good Samaritan can still get you screwed in the end...

  16. #14
    Sergeant dcruthis's Avatar
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    what would i do? if i saw a woman being repeatedly stabbed on the floor of Wegman's? really?

    I WOULD SHOOT THE ASSAILANT AS MANY TIMES AS I NEEDED TO UNTIL HE STOPPED STABBING HER.

  17. #15
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    This is where these laws suck.

    I do not believe i would hesitate just because it was a human being I was pointing my gun at. My hesitation would be because I do not know what would happen afterward, and I have to keep in mind that the loss of my paycheck could have devastating consequences for my family. i cannot be tied up with legal fees or fines because I tried to save someone's life.

    Why can't it be cut-and-dried. so-and-so tries to kill someone with a knife, I end up killing so-and-so to defend their victim, my actions are ruled necessary and just.

  18. #16
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    That's a tough question. I can say I would pull and shoot the suspect to save the woman's life, but then again, who is going to pay my legal fees and the drama that would ensue between my fiance, family & friends. Everyone can pat you on the back and say your a hero, but is everyone going to help out with legal fees and bills? As sad as this sounds, this is life.

  19. #17
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    It seems to me there needs to be something between "retreat" and "shoot to kill" here. I'd think that shooting in a Wegmans risks hitting a bystander or the victim. Pepper spray or physical force might be a better option.

    I'd rather get cut disarming this person than have to deal with killing him, and living with the consequences.

  20. #18
    Colonel av8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedoctor View Post
    It seems to me there needs to be something between "retreat" and "shoot to kill" here.
    There can be...it's your choice...the OP is asking what would *YOU* do, not what do you suggest everyone do.
    "An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject"

  21. #19
    Captain sdb3023's Avatar
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    I know what I hope I would do. What will I do? Hopefully we never find out.
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  22. #20
    Major fastk9dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedoctor View Post
    It seems to me there needs to be something between "retreat" and "shoot to kill" here. I'd think that shooting in a Wegmans risks hitting a bystander or the victim. Pepper spray or physical force might be a better option.

    I'd rather get cut disarming this person than have to deal with killing him, and living with the consequences.

    Personally I'm with you. I have spray on me most of the time and I'd try that tactic at first, it may distract him enough so he can be disarmed and/or the victim can get away. Something like draw my weapon and have it by myside, spray in left hand pointed at him, tell him to drop knife, spray him, tell him to drop it again and get on the ground... and see where it goes from there. Maybe he gets distracted enough by the burning and tearing someone else can take him down from behind, or he complies. Hopefully he doesn't charge me or continue to assault the victim. It would be a tough call to actually shoot in the store while he's on top of someone. A miss or ricochet could put many others at risk. If he charges me thats a different story, but then I'm not sure how the law would look at me and if I became the agressor (to him) in that situation since I forced myself into it even though I am allowed to come to the aid of a 3rd party. Plus what if I don't know the whole situation and he was defending himself against her.

  23. #21
    Colonel Tim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich3210 View Post
    And even if you get through/ passed the chance of a criminal trial, there's still the chance of a civil trial.
    I'm not going to say what I would do if I found myself in this situation (nobody can say what they will do until they are actually there, god willing I'll never have to find out) but if you are worried about a civil suit while watching someone being murdered you seriously need to reconsider your priorities.

    I've said this multiple times -- the absolute worst case scenario from a civil suit is that you end up broke. BFD. I've been broke before -- even filed Chapter 7 a few years ago -- it's not the end of the world. On the laundry list of disappointments in life it ranks pretty low. I can think of all manner of things that would be worse than being broke -- losing a loved one, being diagnosed with a disease, being the victim of a violent crime, etc, etc.

    And that's assuming that you lose the civil suit. I know this is New York State and all but do you honestly think that a jury is going to award damages to somebody that was in the process of MURDERING someone? Do you honestly think that a Grand Jury, even in the most liberal parts of the state would indict someone for halting a murder? Do you believe that a Petit Jury would convict?

    It's my opinion that people worry too much about this. Read and understand Article 35. Ask yourself the hard questions: Can I end another life to save my own? Can I end another life to save the life of a innocent third party? Determine where your personal boundaries are: Would you get into a car with someone? Would you let them tie you up? Could you walk away from a murder or rape in progress without trying to help and be able to look at yourself in the mirror?

    And really, why would you even think about being sued if you've made the decision that you are willing to end a human life? Have you ever known anybody that had to take a human life? Let me assure you that the physiological ramifications pale in comparison to the prospect of a civil suit. It will literally change your life forever. If you've decided that you are willing to go through that and live with it a civil suit should be the last thing on your mind.
    “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” -Sir Winston Churchill

  24. #22
    Captain dubleuhb's Avatar
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    ^Just the fact that many people take the financial ramifications into account before the well being of another human shows what this world has come to. I don't know how anyone could just not do nothing. Crack him over the head with a can of beans or something if you don't feel it's safe enough to shoot. You have to do something to distract him from the victim and stop the attack, the next plunge of the knife could be the fatal one. I can't say exactly what i would have done but i can say somehow i would have tried.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
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  25. #23
    Colonel Baby Kaboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by javerial View Post
    I've said this multiple times -- the absolute worst case scenario from a civil suit is that you end up broke. BFD. I've been broke before...
    I have been, too. When I was about your age. Lost everything. Let me assure you, things look differently and your priorities do change 30 years down the line. You have diminished abilities and sometimes wonder if you may have to work until you die. Often, as in my case, you are responsible for the care of elderly parents, etc.

    So, I'm going to fire multiple shots in a crowded Wegmans with people already wrestling, trying to subdue the guy? I don't think so. Why would I saddle my family, my primary responsibility in this life, with that financial burden should something go wrong-which it very well could? I carry a gun for the immediate protection of my life and the lives of my loved ones. Others get in line on a case by case basis. I'm very comfortable with those priorities.

  26. #24
    Colonel Baby Kaboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubleuhb View Post
    Crack him over the head with a can of beans or something if you don't feel it's safe enough to shoot.
    I like this. One of those jumbo cans of Bush's baked beans in 32oz caliber would do the trick.

  27. #25
    Sergeant mich3210's Avatar
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    ^^^ No offense to what you both said because it's valid, but you took what I said out of context. I never said I wouldn't do anything. I'm the last person that would stand by and watch something like that take place. I simply stated those things because they are what you have to be prepared for when when you decide to start carrying a gun. I never said anything about money or anything like that. The mental toll some of that can take on you and your family can be more than enough. You just need to be prepared for that. The financial implications of it never even came to my mind. So before you start jumping down peoples throats, why don't you make sure you know what they meant first.

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