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Thread: What is the law?

  1. #1
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    Default What is the law?

    What is the law in the sense that lets say I'm walking down the street or in a park, And I see someone committing a crime, i.e robbing someone with a knife or gunpoint, someone beating their significant other, raping or child abduction, an animal attacking a person, can I legally pull out my firearm to stop the altercation or do I still have to retreat. And what about if someone comes in to a store and starts shooting, can I stop him or do I still have to retreat if I can safely do so. I tried to read the laws but there are so many unclear rules, and since I'm not a lawyer or know one I can't make sense of it all. From what I've read, it seems like as long as I or a family member is not being threatened I have to retreat. Any help would be appreciated.

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  3. #2
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    The short answer is that yes, you can defend someone else.

    The longer answer is much more nuanced. I think the mnemonic was "MR BARKS" - Murder Rape Burglary Arson Robbery Kidnapping Sodomy. It's changed over the years, I think they use DR BARKS now (D = Deadly physical force being used against you or others) and they changed the 'S' to be "criminal Sexual assault." These are the offenses for which deadly force may be legal.

    As I'm sure you have observed, even clear-cut cases of self-defense can still end up with the defender in court, charged with serious crimes. I don't have any factual data on the matter, but I suspect one is even more likely to be charged with something in a case of defense of others, particularly when said "other" is unknown to you.

    It's also worth noting that there is an endless pool of stories of people intervening in domestic violence incidents, only to wind up having the "victim" of said DV attacking the intervening party ("get off my boyfriend!"). In a case where there are three witnesses, what that "victim" says to the court could put you in prison for a long time.

    This is definitely something you want to think all the way through before you carry. What things are you willing to expose yourself to a potential life sentence in prison for? Because that's what you're risking any time you decide to use deadly physical force.

    Personally, I long ago decided that I will only defend myself and those under my charge. For everyone else, I will call the police once I get myself and those under my charge to safety. It is a cold and callous approach, but it is one I feel NYS has forced me to take. My primary purpose in life is to protect and defend my family. I can't do that from prison. I will not risk the security of my family to protect someone that could have and should have secured the means to protect themselves, but decided not to. The police are only minutes away, I wish them luck but I am GTFO-ing outta there.
    Anything stated in the above post is my personal opinion and should not be construed as legal advice.

  4. #3
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    I’d highly recommend taking FTNY intro to concealed carry course. He is a great guy and it changed the way I thought about how and when I would act in defense of myself and others. He is now offering them online. It’s around $100 or so but we’ll worth it and James is a great great.
    I do agree with the statements above especially on the domestic violence situation. I’d avoid them at all costs unless it’s truly an immediate matter of life and death.

    The short answer as mentioned above is you are allowed to defend your life or the life of others that can not retreat that are in immediate danger with deadly physical force. Also keep in mind the burglarization of an unoccupied dwelling is not a situation where you can use deadly physical force. Robbery yes you can because it’s a crime of a person and property. Burglary is just a crime of property. You can not under any circumstance use deadly physical force in defense of property no matter of its a duffle bag full of 100 million dollars.
    There are plenty of situations where folks got themselves in trouble acting too fast and getting shot by a cop or another perp that was not noticed. Take for instance the robbery and shooting taking place. You maybe in the store and notice the guy holding the gun at the counter clerk and act on that shooting that robber. Yeah good job you saved the 18 year old store clerk but you may have missed the guy with a shotgun guarding the door and get shot and killed your self. So now two are dead when that robber likely would not have shot the store clerk, took a few hundred dollars, and then went to get high.
    Every situation has to be evaluated and o constantly run through situations in my head and how I would act. A lot of it is mindset and a lot of situations are sure as hell complicated. I’d help a cop out under any circumstance but you’d sure as hell better be sure he knows your on his side so you don’t get shot after helping/shooting the perp.
    Vicarious likes this.

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    The law clearly defines when deadly force is authorized. Just remember that you're not a cop and it is best to not get involved in things. Someone fighting with their girlfriend? Not your problem. Keep moving.

    Read up and understand these laws. Do not take advice from strangers on the internet or so called "instructors" on when you should or shouldn't shoot.They won't be beside you in court. The only thing that will keep you out of prison is your understanding of the actual law as it is written. For all you know the people here know as much as or less than you do.

    Here's the law:
    ..The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
    about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
    actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
    complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
    necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
    duty to retreat if he or she is:
    (i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
    (ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
    officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to
    section 35.30; or
    (b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
    or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
    sexual act or robbery; or
    (c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
    or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
    the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
    section 35.20.
    ALSO
    ...may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably
    believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or
    attempted commission of arson.
    Last edited by smitty846; 04-29-2020 at 11:16 PM.

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    What if let's say someone comes into a store and starts a shooting, and I can escape out the back door so I can safely retreat. Would i be charged if I take out the perpetrators or nys I would have to retreat. I know I do run the risk of an unknown perpetrator seeing me and taking me out, but other lives can be saved

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tundra89 View Post
    What if let's say someone comes into a store and starts a shooting, and I can escape out the back door so I can safely retreat. Would i be charged if I take out the perpetrators or nys I would have to retreat. I know I do run the risk of an unknown perpetrator seeing me and taking me out, but other lives can be saved
    No. You didn't read the law I have provided for you.

    The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
    about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
    actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
    complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
    necessity of so doing by retreating.

    If people were being shot and you retreated, would that qualify as complete personal safety for yourself and others?

    Slow down. Read and understand the actual law I have provided to you.
    Pale Horse likes this.

  9. #7
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    For some reason what you posted about the law didint pop up, it was left blank, I don't know if its because I'm viewing on mobile.

  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tundra89 View Post
    For some reason what you posted about the law didint pop up, it was left blank, I don't know if its because I'm viewing on mobile.
    Updated. Should be able to view on mobile now.

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    Thank you

  12. #10
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    This isn't an answer to your question but I'm going to throw it out there: the law can eat shit when it comes to ethics.

    I'm not into that government-simping culture. If I see someone who needs help I'm going to help.
    nEw yOrK sTaDe UNriSdriCktiD PISSOHL PERMUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

  13. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tundra89 View Post
    What if let's say someone comes into a store and starts a shooting, and I can escape out the back door so I can safely retreat. Would i be charged if I take out the perpetrators or nys I would have to retreat. I know I do run the risk of an unknown perpetrator seeing me and taking me out, but other lives can be saved
    As stated it’s in defense of yourself or others. You have the option to retreat and are not forced to act. Just be aware of your surroundings before acting and make sure you won’t hit the victim.

    im on a church safety committee and I had the one instructor tell me to stop a mass shooter in the church building I could shoot through a victim he’s holding hostage. I couldn’t believe it. Don’t shoot the victim. Drop the gun or have it holstered before the cops get there if and when the coast is clear of bad guys.

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    Is James able to assist in getting a CCW or premise permit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightshaker231 View Post
    Is James able to assist in getting a CCW or premise permit?
    What would you need assistance with? Get the application packet and follow the instructions. It's pretty simple.

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    I hope you have an unlimited amount of $$$$ in your bank account. You will spend big bucks on a lawyer even if 100% right. You will be sued by the family of the survivor, count on it.
    I love the south

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladder13 View Post
    I hope you have an unlimited amount of $$$$ in your bank account. You will spend big bucks on a lawyer even if 100% right. You will be sued by the family of the survivor, count on it.
    That’s likely true. Remember it’s sad but dead people are worth less than live and suffering people.
    Also doesn’t mean they will win and take you for everything. Also remember they need a lawyer to take the case and it has to be some what winnable for that to happen. Lawyers don’t want to waiste their time and efforts on an un-winnable case.

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    That's the sad part, if I'm justified the family can still sue, even though the perp was probably going to take my life as well, double edge sword, might as well be dead yourself at that point.

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    I notice the law says Arson. I saw several cases of arson be committed on the TV news. Shoot one of those rioters/arsonist and the local DA I bet would charge YOU. After all you cant kill of any Joe Biden voters now. That's criminal.

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