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  1. #1
    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Default Barrel length, caliber and rifling twist rate

    My search for a 9mm Carbine has not panned out as of today. I have been looking for a Ruger PC9 or a Marlin Camp9 in that order of preference. I am waiting to hear more about the 9mm M1 from Citadel. I suspect it may be a lower grade replica. I know nothing about the company. I believe their firearms are made in the Phillipines. Reliability and reasonable accuracy is important to me. Anyone heard anything about it?
    My interest in 9mm was for ammo commonality with my pistols, availability of 9mm ammo and of course cost. Also I had read that 9mm was a good choice for a 16.5 in barrel. I am not educated as to the why of it all but I assume it has to deal with the combination and integration of barrel length, rifling rate of twist and bullet weight. Any comments in regards to the choice of caliber for barrel length etc are appreciated.
    So I am thinking about a contingency plan. Possibly a different caliber. One thing I know is I definitely want to stay at the 16 inch barrel length. I know 18 inch is not that much longer but I am holding fast at the 16 inch length for the barrel.
    The Ruger Mini 30 tactical may be an alternative. The 7.62X39 seems to be a readily available caliber world wide and compared to most rifle rounds seems cost effective. The tactical 16.5 inch barrel comes with a threaded compensator. I guess I could have a threaded barrel nut welded or pinned or whatever is required to meet the Emperor's demands.
    Looking for additional comments in regards to the 7.62X39 from a 16 inch barrel rifle.pparently the rifling is 1/10 on the Mini 30.
    Also I would be open for other suggestions. I do not need all the evil features and prefer to not get involved in a self build project at this time.
    Purpose of the rifle would be to replace or augment my M590A1 for in home, Motorhome and in vehicle while off road exploring in the desert Southwest. I do not hunt so big game take down capabilities at long range is NOT an issue.
    So lets discuss caliber, barrel length and rifling twist rate and how they interplay when choosing a rifle.
    Also any comments or experiences on the above mentioned firearms is appreciated.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

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  3. #2
    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    NOBODY?
    How about I promise the topic will evolve to some political, constitution trampling, or otherwise controversial subject. ( You know what those are).
    meketrefe where are you? HELP!!
    Last edited by Different Drummer; 12-07-2013 at 05:16 PM.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

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    As a suggestion, I'd recommend the SKS Paratrooper with the 16 inch barrel if you want to go the 7.62x39 route which I believe to be an excellent idea. The Mini 30 has been known to not work well with foreign ammo. The firing pin has a hard time igniting the hard Berdan primers used in foreign ammo which is something to consider since most ammo available you would run into would be foreign. With the SKS you also do not have to worry about being compliant since it has a fixed 10 round mag in it's stock configuration.

    I posted this comment about the SKS in another thread. I love this rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    If you do not have anything now and you are trying to buy something in this state presently for SHTF, I would go with an SKS Paratrooper.

    Why?

    7.62x39 is way cheaper than .223. You can stock up on more ammo with less money. A case of 1000 is around $300

    7.62x39 will penetrate car doors, glass and small trees. In SHTF you may have to shoot through barriers. .223 does not cut it. It also has better penetration against body armor.

    7.62x39 will kill a larger variety of game. It is adequate enough for NY black bear and deer. It isn't terrible against smaller game as well. Rabbits shot with FMJ will still have a good portion of meat left.

    Fixed magazine. You do not have to worry about carrying bulky magazines. You can carry more ammo in stripper clips with less space and with practice can be just as fast as someone doing a regular mag change. You can also load by hand without stripper clips. You can also easily convert to detachable magazines if the Unsafe act is repealed if that floats your boat.

    Bayonet is already integrated into the gun and currently NY legal. You can not lose it since it is always there. If you run dry on ammo, it is an excellent mele weapon. The bayonet can also be used as a makeshift monopod.

    Cleaning kit and cleaning rod is already integrated in the rifle. No extra crap to carry around.

    Simplicity. No small parts to get lost if field stripped.

    Price. Can be had at around $300 to $500 compared to most rifles that go for $1000. You can buy multiple SKS's for the price of 1 AR which can be handed out to others in your group or used as a big trade item.

    Attachment 25934
    Also, the SKS goes bang every time whether run dirty or dry.
    Last edited by willjr75; 12-07-2013 at 06:00 PM.

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    General GUNSICK1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Different Drummer View Post
    NOBODY?
    How about I promise the topic will evolve to some political, constitution trampling, or otherwise controversial subject. ( You know what those are).
    meketrefe where are you? HELP!!
    Meketrefe is who knows this stuff the best, but he was banned. Don't know why or when he will be back.

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    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    As a suggestion, I'd recommend the SKS Paratrooper with the 16 inch barrel if you want to go the 7.62x39 route which I believe to be an excellent idea. The Mini 30 has been known to not work well with foreign ammo. The firing pin has a hard time igniting the hard Berdan primers used in foreign ammo which is something to consider since most ammo available you would run into would be foreign. With the SKS you also do not have to worry about being compliant since it has a fixed 10 round mag in it's stock configuration.

    I posted this comment about the SKS in another thread. I love this rifle.



    Also, the SKS goes bang every time whether run dirty or dry.
    Thanks, that is an interesting alternative. I actually lookd at a couple of SKS rifles on the way across country just because I had never seen one. I am thinking that the "Pratrooper model may be hard to locate. True? How is the accurracy? Not looking for target competion accurracy but would like reasonable at 50-75 yards.
    I will see what I can google on them.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

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    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GUNSICK1 View Post
    Meketrefe is who knows this stuff the best, but he was banned. Don't know why or when he will be back.
    Well, I did not know about the ban! He is the one who actually suggested I start a thread on the 9mm Carbine search. I thought it was strange that he did not respond to the thread. I must say I miss his presence.
    I agree, he has a handle on all that technical stuff. I was hoping to drag him out of the bushes for some discussion on the subject.
    Hope he is back soon.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

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    Colonel willjr75's Avatar
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    I have a recently purchased SKS Paratrooper. I got it from AR15.com in the equipment exchange.I got it for $400. Gunbroker has tons of them. You just have to win the bid and have the seller ship to any local NY FFL of your choice. As far as accuracy goes at 50 yards I was getting 1 to 2 inch groups. At 100 yards my groups opened up more but I blame my eyes for that. The SKS is accurate on a man sized target up to 300 meters. You won't get much after 300 though which for me is plenty enough. The rifle shoots smooth and barely no recoil at all compared to AR15 type rifles. I have installed a muzzle brake and now there is less felt muzzle flip than any of my AR's I have owned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    I have a recently purchased SKS Paratrooper. I got it from AR15.com in the equipment exchange.I got it for $400. Gunbroker has tons of them. You just have to win the bid and have the seller ship to any local NY FFL of your choice. As far as accuracy goes at 50 yards I was getting 1 to 2 inch groups. At 100 yards my groups opened up more but I blame my eyes for that. The SKS is accurate on a man sized target up to 300 meters. You won't get much after 300 though which for me is plenty enough. The rifle shoots smooth and barely no recoil at all compared to AR15 type rifles. I have installed a muzzle brake and now there is less felt muzzle flip than any of my AR's I have owned.
    Just googled a bit. Found a few. Many had Magazines included. Can they be reverted back to the use of stripper clips?
    Seems the paratrooper model was never really used as a military weapon but is a modified standard SKS for export sales. Not a problem for me.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

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    They can be reverted to the stock fixed mag easily via a field strip however, with a detachable mag the Safe Act comes into play and you will not be able to take possession unless the bayonet lug is ground off. When I purchased mine, I had the guy put the stock fixed mag back on before shipping it to my FFL and had the 30 rd detachable mags shipped to my home in Florida. Honestly, I will probably sell the 30 rounders when I get to Fl since I feel for me, I have no use for them. I can load pretty fast via stripper clips. Detachable mag users run into reliability problems if you google them.

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    The mini 30 is reliable if you use brass cased boxer primed ammo which is more expensive. You can get one brand new if you do not feel like going through the hassle of searching online for a used sks. If you go that route you'll just have to bite the bullet and pay a few hundred dollars more for a 1000 rds. Here are some price differences between berdan primed vs boxer primed ammo.

    Fiocchi Shooting Dynamics Ammo 7.62x39mm Russian 123 Grain Full Metal

    TulAmmo Ammo 7.62x39mm 122 Grain Full Metal Jacket (Bi-Metal) Steel

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    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    willijr75,
    Thanks again for all the info on the SKS Paratrooper and the ammo. I am going to try to see if I can find one in the flesh so to speak. I usually like to see and fondle a potential firearms buy. I does look like something I might purchase if the 9mm trail remains dead.
    Surprised I have not been able to solicit comments on that 9mm Citadel M1
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

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    I think a 9mm could be just about any barrel length you want in a rifle. The 9mm round has a small case capacity and relatively high pressures for a pistol round, so you need a fast burning powder to get the round up to speed, and barrels over handgun length may not add much to the performance of the round. I would have to see a pressure curve to see just how much more velocity you can get out of a 9mm in a rifle length barrel.

    A larger capacity pistol round like a .357 Mag for instance can really gain hundreds of fps velocity out of a rifle barrel since the pressure peaks can be delayed a bit while the bullet is still in the bore. A 9mm out of a rifle barrel is almost certainly going to be faster than a pistol barrel, but the difference may not be as much as with other calibers.

    Twist rates for all length barrels needs to take into account the diameter and total mass of the bullet. Generally speaking, the heavier a bullet is in a specific caliber, the more spin it requires to stabilize.

    There are more specifics like the density of the bullet material and air pressure as well, but they are not typical scenarios we worry about. For instance, a frangible bullet being fired in a hot jungle and a tungsten core bullet being fired in arctic temps may require different spin rates, even if the two bullets are the same caliber and exterior dimensions.

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    I'd probably go with the Mini-30. The 7.62x39 ammo is all over the place. Every walmart I stop at has it on the shelf, pretty much all the time, for $5.17 a box. Gander has the RedArmy Standard brand, as well as Tula, and Aim Surplus has Wolf for about $5/box after shipping for both ball and HP ammo.

    I'm not even looking into reloading that caliber, as brass cased stuff is expensive, and as long as the steel stuff is cheap, I'll continue to shoot it.

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    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudonymity View Post
    I think a 9mm could be just about any barrel length you want in a rifle. The 9mm round has a small case capacity and relatively high pressures for a pistol round, so you need a fast burning powder to get the round up to speed, and barrels over handgun length may not add much to the performance of the round. I would have to see a pressure curve to see just how much more velocity you can get out of a 9mm in a rifle length barrel.

    A larger capacity pistol round like a .357 Mag for instance can really gain hundreds of fps velocity out of a rifle barrel since the pressure peaks can be delayed a bit while the bullet is still in the bore. A 9mm out of a rifle barrel is almost certainly going to be faster than a pistol barrel, but the difference may not be as much as with other calibers.

    Twist rates for all length barrels needs to take into account the diameter and total mass of the bullet. Generally speaking, the heavier a bullet is in a specific caliber, the more spin it requires to stabilize.

    There are more specifics like the density of the bullet material and air pressure as well, but they are not typical scenarios we worry about. For instance, a frangible bullet being fired in a hot jungle and a tungsten core bullet being fired in arctic temps may require different spin rates, even if the two bullets are the same caliber and exterior dimensions.
    Thanks, you have supplied in part what I hoped would develop for discussion. I deduct from what you provide that certainly the 9mm would not suffer from a 16.5 inch barrel where as in a MUCH longer barrel it may in fact be hindered in it's performance. I am not going to give up just yet on the 9mm Carbine. The availability, price and the commonality it has with my pistols weights me heavily that way. However if it does not work out I need a contingency plan. Thus the 7.62X39.
    I can't find much on the M1 in 9mm by Citadel and I don't have a clue as to quality/reliability of their firearms. Still looking.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
    I'd probably go with the Mini-30. The 7.62x39 ammo is all over the place. Every walmart I stop at has it on the shelf, pretty much all the time, for $5.17 a box. Gander has the RedArmy Standard brand, as well as Tula, and Aim Surplus has Wolf for about $5/box after shipping for both ball and HP ammo.

    I'm not even looking into reloading that caliber, as brass cased stuff is expensive, and as long as the steel stuff is cheap, I'll continue to shoot it.
    You knowI like the Mini 30 and would spend the bucks as it would be a new rifle as well as have the customer service of Ruger. However on criteria is to be able to afford to shoot the rifle regularly and put quite a few rounds dow range. Much of the ammo you mention is the same stuff that I am being advised have hard primers that the Mini 30 apparently
    has difficulty with. Are using a Mini 30? If so how is it handling the hard primer stuff? Do you shoot it often? Can you estimate how much of the steel case ammo you have put through your Mini30 ( If that is what you have ) and how many misfires?
    Thanks
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

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    .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag or .45 Colt lever action carbine. A 16 - 18 inch barrel will do everything you are wanting to do and give you more flexibility. It will be one of the last types of rifles bothered by the anti gunners because they would sound stupid trying to ban those evil cowboy rifles. They are easy to use light weight and the learning curve is not steep at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Different Drummer View Post
    Thanks, you have supplied in part what I hoped would develop for discussion. I deduct from what you provide that certainly the 9mm would not suffer from a 16.5 inch barrel where as in a MUCH longer barrel it may in fact be hindered in it's performance. I am not going to give up just yet on the 9mm Carbine. The availability, price and the commonality it has with my pistols weights me heavily that way. However if it does not work out I need a contingency plan. Thus the 7.62X39.
    I can't find much on the M1 in 9mm by Citadel and I don't have a clue as to quality/reliability of their firearms. Still looking.
    Here is great resource for you: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

    The 9mm does gain a bit by having a longer barrel, but the case capacity just does not leave much room to load a powder that is optimal for rifle barrels. Most 9mm rifles are blowback action as well, so even experienced reloaders have a hard time finding hot rifle loads for blowback 9mm guns without getting gas coming back out of the action. A 9mm rounds out of a rifle will gain you a bit of velocity over a handgun, but the difference is not what I would call dramatic.

    The 7.62x39 is a legitimate rifle round, and really is no comparison to the 9mm even in a rifle barrel. Even a hot .357Mag out of a rifle barrel is several hundred fps slower than a weak x39 at the same bullet mass.

    There is certainly nothing wrong with a PCC, but do not make the mistake of thinking that they are a suitable substitute for a rifle round - they simply are not in the same class. PCCs can be a good solution to a problem, but not the same problems you would address with a rifle round.

    If you do want a semi x39, the Ruger is a bit more expensive than other choices. If the prices on stock Saigas ever comes back down from orbit, they are a good gun. The SKS is a good choice as well, and more often available than the Mini 30, although SKS prices are still nearly double what they were a year or two ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudonymity View Post
    Here is great resource for you: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

    The 9mm does gain a bit by having a longer barrel, but the case capacity just does not leave much room to load a powder that is optimal for rifle barrels. Most 9mm rifles are blowback action as well, so even experienced reloaders have a hard time finding hot rifle loads for blowback 9mm guns without getting gas coming back out of the action. A 9mm rounds out of a rifle will gain you a bit of velocity over a handgun, but the difference is not what I would call dramatic.

    The 7.62x39 is a legitimate rifle round, and really is no comparison to the 9mm even in a rifle barrel. Even a hot .357Mag out of a rifle barrel is several hundred fps slower than a weak x39 at the same bullet mass.

    There is certainly nothing wrong with a PCC, but do not make the mistake of thinking that they are a suitable substitute for a rifle round - they simply are not in the same class. PCCs can be a good solution to a problem, but not the same problems you would address with a rifle round.

    If you do want a semi x39, the Ruger is a bit more expensive than other choices. If the prices on stock Saigas ever comes back down from orbit, they are a good gun. The SKS is a good choice as well, and more often available than the Mini 30, although SKS prices are still nearly double what they were a year or two ago.
    All assimilated and understood.
    Perhaps someone wil comment on a SKS I fondled today at a large LGS in AZ. A trade in. Details: Norinco, 16.5 inch barrel, NO bayonet or bayonet lug, Numbers on various components do not match ( two do match I think it was the reciever and the trigger guard. Bolt and the fixed Mag. where both different.) Blond furniture, Components for cleaning were in the stock but the cleaning rod was missing from under the barrel, Had a Norinco side mount for a scope with a Simmons scope attached. Price=$470.00. Seemed high to me. I dont think the scope is anything great.
    Opinions on price?
    Are the missing cleaning rod and bayonet/ bayonet lug hard to find?
    Is the fact that the numbers are from three different sources a problem for a shooter?
    Rifle otherwise looked clean and the bore was decent. I am sure it went through a prep before put on display.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Different Drummer View Post
    All assimilated and understood.
    Perhaps someone wil comment on a SKS I fondled today at a large LGS in AZ. A trade in. Details: Norinco, 16.5 inch barrel, NO bayonet or bayonet lug, Numbers on various components do not match ( two do match I think it was the reciever and the trigger guard. Bolt and the fixed Mag. where both different.) Blond furniture, Components for cleaning were in the stock but the cleaning rod was missing from under the barrel, Had a Norinco side mount for a scope with a Simmons scope attached. Price=$470.00. Seemed high to me. I dont think the scope is anything great.
    Opinions on price?
    Are the missing cleaning rod and bayonet/ bayonet lug hard to find?
    Is the fact that the numbers are from three different sources a problem for a shooter?
    Rifle otherwise looked clean and the bore was decent. I am sure it went through a prep before put on display.
    Sounds like the commercial paratrooper Chicom SKS models that were specifically built for import during the fed AWB (94-2004). There is no bayonet mount - on a milsurp SKS the bayonet mount is part of the front sight base. If you had a model with the scope mount actually side mounted to the receiver (not on the removable receiver cover), I think that was an aftermarket install.

    At any rate, if you find an SKS where the bolt and receiver numbers do not match, I would absolutely check the headspace with a good set of gauges - twice. The design of the SKS uses a tilting bolt with no replaceable locking shoulder, so if the bolt is too short (headspace is too long) you have to either find a longer bolt or have the receiver welded, machined to spec and then re-hardened unless you prefer to tempt fate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudonymity View Post
    Sounds like the commercial paratrooper Chicom SKS models that were specifically built for import during the fed AWB (94-2004). There is no bayonet mount - on a milsurp SKS the bayonet mount is part of the front sight base. If you had a model with the scope mount actually side mounted to the receiver (not on the removable receiver cover), I think that was an aftermarket install.

    At any rate, if you find an SKS where the bolt and receiver numbers do not match, I would absolutely check the headspace with a good set of gauges - twice. The design of the SKS uses a tilting bolt with no replaceable locking shoulder, so if the bolt is too short (headspace is too long) you have to either find a longer bolt or have the receiver welded, machined to spec and then re-hardened unless you prefer to tempt fate.
    Ahhh!, on the bolt and reciever #'s. Though the rifle appears to be of utilitarian design I was wondering about components being matched to each other. Perhaps I will pass on this one.
    Side mount seemed attached to tapped receiver. Perhaps if is still there next time I stop by I will look closer. This is a whole new ball game for me.
    Also there were no stripper clips. I am wondering if they are hard to come by. Any thoughts?
    On the bayonet, I thought the ones I have seen on line did in fact come with the bayonet. Also I thought willijr mentioned the inclusion of the bayonet on the paratrooper model.
    What would proper headspace parameters be? Minimum, Maximum.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

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    The SKS is nice in original configuration but it is heavy and bulky. Less than ideal to carry all day or to be practical.
    They could be shorten and lightened up like the people do in the taiga but then it is more dollars and still not the best
    it coudl be.
    The mini30 is nice but I would seriously consider an Saiga. The reason is because they are brand new 'old technology'
    made with superior Russian steel. In other words, the round was made for the AK and the AK was made for that
    round and izmash plant (makers of saigas) has produced millions of them based on the same machines and mil spec
    barrels.
    Saiga 7.62x39 rifle with 16.3 Barrel - IZHMASH Saiga 7.62x39 rifle with 16.3 Barrel - IZHMASH [IZ-132] - $499.00 : Mississippi Auto Arms, Inc ::, Your Source for Saiga, AK47, AR15, Tromix, Glock, and SKS firearms and accessories

    The saiga could be left untouched or it could be converted being compliant both with the federal and current NYS BS law.
    A number of hunting US made stocks and furniture can be adapated to be NYS compliant. The tapco trigger is $25 that
    is 3 US compliant parts alone. stock and forend US parts count for 2 more parts for a total of US made parts.

    I would not discard the .223 saiga because for practice the .223 steel ammo is about the same as the 7.62x39 and then
    one has amazing loads in 70 and 75grs for tactical pruposes. Also the .223 is more accurate and effective including
    in the saiga. also there is a simple inexpensive conversion for the saiga to take AR magazines. I think the .223 saiga
    deal is hard to beat for a SHTF, do it all, do it pretty decently type of carbine. The orignal AK round is nice too I am
    saying because .223 saigas are really nice and many times overlooked. The .223 is massively produced domestically
    and it is the service cartrige of NATO. The 7.62x39 is not.

    Saiga .223 rifle with 16.3 Barrel IZ-114 - Izhmash Saiga .223 rifle with 16.3 Barrel IZ-114 - Izhmash [IZ-114] - $419.00 : Mississippi Auto Arms, Inc ::, Your Source for Saiga, AK47, AR15, Tromix, Glock, and SKS firearms and accessories



    Either caliber... good prices, brand new, great russian steel all an original AKM Russian made pedigree, affordable ammo,
    inexpensive plentiful upgrades with plenty aftermarket support and options.

    The VEPR are also very nice ( more expensive) but you will need to find a gunsmith that cuts the thumbhole open
    and reduce the grip portion to make it NY compliant. It will also need a bracket to make the bottom union stronger.
    Very nice rifles but the saiga will be easier and more affordable.

    Vepr AK 47 Rifle Russian Heavy Duty 762 x 39mm


  24. #22
    General meketrefe's Avatar
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    This is the .223 magazine adapter for the saiga. Some minor milling or file work and fitting is required.

    https://texasakdesigns.com/products-...zine-adapters/



    Here a torture video they did with a Pmag.



    The 7.62x39 will not need an adapter and tapco mags are ok but you will need a bullet guide. very inexpensive
    to buy or fabricate and easy to install anyway. The adapter will work with the saiga 223 converted or w/o conversion
    of other parts to compliance and will also need the bullet guide. All is very simple.

  25. #23
    General meketrefe's Avatar
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    These stocks are very well made in the USA and should one convert the saiga the stock is strong enough to be cut open flush with the
    cheek raiser and the grip shortened a bit to make it f.cuomo compliant.

    Rhineland arms



    Panther stock for the AK stamped receivers. This stock has an adjustable check rest and stackable recoil pads to change the length o

  26. #24
    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Oh meketrefe, you bringing 5,56/223 into the conversation is going to make me crazy!! LOL
    So lets talk about that first. Unless I can be convinced that 5.56 is more cost effective to purchase than 7.62X 39 then I am leaning quiye heavily toward the 7.62X39.
    I understand that the 5.56 offers a better variety of bullet weights and that it has a flatter trajectory and better long distance capability. However those criteria do not factor into my one and only rifle purchase. I do not hunt and if I were ever sighting in on domestic targets at the range where the 5.56 gains it's advantage I am sure I would be in VERY big trouble with the legal authorities. Also I am not a prepper nor do I fear a Zombie attack. No offense to those who do. My concerns are much more home related ( MH as well ) or remote desert related. It is reassuring to have a weapon next to the sleeping bag when the coyotes are sniffing around on your near perimeter. And yes, I have been followed/stalked after dark while returning to camp by a pack of coyotes. I was unarmed and though I kept reassuring myself that they would not move in on me, I also vowed to never be unarmed in the desert again.
    Anyway, right now the only reason I can think of to get me to choose 5,56 as a caliber would be cost. I am going into town tomorrow ( about 30 miles away ) and I will compare the cost of the two calibers.
    Also, just seems sort of sacrilegious to NOT use 7.62X39 in an AK design rifle.
    If in fact I did go with the 5.56/223, why not just purchase a Mini14 with 16 inch barrel and be done with it? I would have the domestic support of Ruger and all sorts of Accy. Unless of course the Saiga has some merits that would place it ahead of the Ruger in choosing a rifle.
    Anyone, please fire at will.
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

  27. #25
    Major Different Drummer's Avatar
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    Default Vepr

    That VEPR with 16 barrel with the thumbhole stock would siut me just fine. Unfortunately it does not meet the supreme ruler's approval.
    Also on the Saiga's. I am sure that I have seen a video and read that when the rifle stock is used on the AK receiver that some modification is made to the trigger mechanism which takes away the AK trigger characteristics and produces less than desirable effects. Something about increasing the length of a transfer linkage or something similar. This is neededto get the trigger within reach of the trigger finger when the receiver is mounted on the sporterized stock as opposed to the AK with the forward pistol grip.
    Can anyone comment on this?
    I'm the guy who could catch VD from a virgin.

    "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away " Thoreau

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