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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    Does anyone know where in the Penal Law is this so called Premise Permit located? I cannot find it. I suspect it may be a made up license by NYC not in the Penal Law.
    Did you read through all of this? NYC Title 38 (NYC Specific Firearms Laws) | New York City Guns
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane_formula View Post
    Thanks man. Holy crap. Did anybody else read this? They've made up their own licenses separate from the Penal Law. They've even written that a violation of the restrictions on a Carry Guard License or Limited Business Carry is subject to punishment from the Penal Law and must be kept unloaded at home.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    Thanks man. Holy crap. Did anybody else read this? They've made up their own licenses separate from the Penal Law. They've even written that a violation of the restrictions on a Carry Guard License or Limited Business Carry is subject to punishment from the Penal Law and must be kept unloaded at home.
    NYC did not arbitrarily make up their own licenses. The state penal law specifically allows this, and it has been that way since - just about forever (or as long as I've been a firearms owner).

    Here is a recent love - letter from NYC/NYPD reminding an entity outside of NYC what is, and is not legal for NYC licensees.
    The licensing agency in NYC is the NYPD. They cannot make laws less restrictive than state law, but can make more restrictive laws, as is evidenced by the draconian laws they have there.
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  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    Thanks man. Holy crap. Did anybody else read this? They've made up their own licenses separate from the Penal Law. They've even written that a violation of the restrictions on a Carry Guard License or Limited Business Carry is subject to punishment from the Penal Law and must be kept unloaded at home.
    I think my favorite part of it (in terms of both absurdity, and how stupid it makes the NYC system seem to those outside of it) is this:

    If the licensee intends to relocate out of State, the License Division requests verification from the local authorities of that particular jurisdiction that the licensee has notified them that s/he is in possession of the handgun listed on her/his N.Y. license.
    Can you imagine the response from the Local authorities in say, rural Texas?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane_formula View Post
    Can you imagine the response from the Local authorities in say, rural Texas?
    Send them a video of the cops laughing themselves to death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FCG LLC View Post
    Here is a recent love - letter from NYC/NYPD reminding an entity outside of NYC what is, and is not legal for NYC licensees..
    So, based on that letter and their encouragement of licensees to pursue training, and the fact that most high quality training in practical pistol use is only available *outside* of NYC, and that they require a written request for permission to bring a handgun outside of NYC, does anyone know how hard it is to get such permission?

    I would like to take classes out on Long Island/upstate and even potentially out of state, and am willing to jump through hoops if necessary so I can use my own pistol and not a rented one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane_formula View Post
    I think my favorite part of it (in terms of both absurdity, and how stupid it makes the NYC system seem to those outside of it) is this:



    Can you imagine the response from the Local authorities in say, rural Texas?
    You wouldn't have to go further than PA. When I went to Srcanton to get my non resident they, sheriffs deputies, were making a mockery of son of mario and the unSAFE Act.
    I love the south

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    Quote Originally Posted by lane_formula View Post
    So, based on that letter and their encouragement of licensees to pursue training, and the fact that most high quality training in practical pistol use is only available *outside* of NYC, and that they require a written request for permission to bring a handgun outside of NYC, does anyone know how hard it is to get such permission?

    I would like to take classes out on Long Island/upstate and even potentially out of state, and am willing to jump through hoops if necessary so I can use my own pistol and not a rented one.

    I have no idea what illogical ideas they think make sense.

    Your quick workaround is to rent/use similar or identical guns to the gun you own. For starters, the NYPD did not give you a gun permit (or whatever the folks who get bent out of shape call it when we call them "permits") to train and get good with. You did not get that permit to use in a self defense situation - unless of course you have a business / work carry where you are moving lots of money. Then, protection of that money is more important than your little Jess or Jonnie at home...

    Much of NYS for example, requires one to purchase a pistol prior to possession, and no training to possess, but they want to speak with your Sunday School teacher (and now iman) from when you were 7 yrs old to see if you ever spoke out of turn in school, but MEANWHILE, it's ok that you don't know how to proficiently operate that very same thing they put up so many hoops from blocking you to own.

    I'm not advocating legal requirements for training - just pointing out that judges, DAs, cops, doctors, politicians, have all gone bad. Consequently one's past history is a poor predictor of future behavior, but clearly one's ability to operate a piece of equipment is a leading determinant on how safely one would be able to use said gear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FCG LLC View Post
    You did not get that permit to use in a self defense situation
    Oh heavens no, I'm strictly a *sportsman*! I wish to pursue training for 3 Gun sporting events!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FCG LLC View Post
    NYC did not arbitrarily make up their own licenses. The state penal law specifically allows this, and it has been that way since - just about forever (or as long as I've been a firearms owner).

    Here is a recent love - letter from NYC/NYPD reminding an entity outside of NYC what is, and is not legal for NYC licensees.
    The licensing agency in NYC is the NYPD. They cannot make laws less restrictive than state law, but can make more restrictive laws, as is evidenced by the draconian laws they have there.
    How do you figure that NYC did not arbitrarily make up their own licenses? I do not see any of those made up licenses in Penal Law 400. Limited business carry, premises, armed guard, limited armed guard, custodian license, ect are not in the Penal Law.

    They put in these made up licenses in their admin code. In the past, they followed the Penal Law and just added restrictions to Penal Law licenses just like other counties did that had no force of law. (Hunting and target, employment to an from work, ect) When they realized that people ignored them and they couldn't charge them with anything because the Penal Law said otherwise, they stopped issuing state licenses and made up their own that weren't in Penal Law 400. In Penal 400, all licenses are granted to carry concealed without regard to employment or place of possession. So a stamp on these licenses mean nothing as far as prosecution goes. That's why they got rid of them for the average person.

    NYC Special Carry licenses are the only ones that follow the Penal Law. It says so in their Admin Code. If you read their Admin Code, they say that the other licenses are subject to prosecution by the Penal Law. These Special Carries are the only ones that legally allow carry out of the city into NYS. They are the same as other counties issue. These are the ones issued to celebrities and retired cops. All the others do not follow the Penal Law and are technically not valid even within the confines of NYC according to state law.

    And that letter is correct since these made up licenses are not in the Penal Law, it would be a Penal Law violation to go anywhere in the state carrying or possessing with them. Out of state is a different matter. Once out of state you are subject to those state's laws.

    Technically a state trooper from Albany can go down to the Bronx and arrest a guy in his home for having an illegal gun on a NYC premise permit since he isn't licensed via the Penal Law. That same trooper can arrest a guy carrying on a limited armed guard permit in his armored truck in NYC since he isn't licensed via Penal Law 400. It clearly says in Penal Law 265 that in order to NOT be convicted of Criminal Possession of a Weapon, you must be exempted by being licensed via Penal Law 400. Nowhere does it say you can be exempted through a city Admin Code. NYC is still part of NYS.

    They get away with it because they get away with it. Who's going to stop them.

    They are not further restricting existing state laws. They are ignoring them and making their own from scratch. It's like saying in NYC you don't need a NYS inspection sticker for your vehicle like the rest of the state which follows state law. You will pay us a certain amount which is 5 times more than the rest of the state pays and we'll put our own inspection sticker on your license and not on your windshield. You can't drive out of the city since you are not inspected by the state and will be in violation for not having the proper inspection sticker on your windshield. We'll put it in our city Admin Code to make it kosher. Since our own Police Department issues these inspection stickers, you won't get arrested for violating state law. Just stay in the 5 boroughs. Go out of the 5 boroughs into Long Island or Yonkers and another police department can cite you. But we won't. It's in our very own Admin Code.

    That's what they did here.
    Last edited by willjr75; 03-06-2016 at 02:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    Who told you that? Wait let me guess. The NYPD?

    In PA and in any other states, you go by their laws. In other states, no permit is required to possess. Carry is different but to possess at a range or in a home, there are no requirements of having a permit to possess. Another state cannot prosecute you for laws in your home state.

    Keep in mind that NYC will do what NYC will do. However, once out of NYC, you are subject to whatever laws of the state you are in which do not make mere possession illegal.

    pa state police confirmed that while no permit system is in place in pa for target shooting they do require your guns be in legal possession by you while there . with a premise permit forbiding you off premise and criminally at fault you are in not in legal possession in pa .

    they view it as once you walked out the door with those guns and left the state you are not in legal possession in pa

    whether they choose to prosecute you or even challenge you is a different matter
    Last edited by mathjak107; 03-06-2016 at 07:42 AM.

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    Will, I know from another forum that mathjak takes the overly cautious route on this one, as many do. Being down here, I encounter a lot of people in his situation. It's pretty split on how people view it. Let's just say that plenty of guns on premise permits leave NYC regularly for various reasons. Many people ignore it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    They get away with it because they get away with it. Who's going to stop them.

    Well, in an ideal world, a *Judge*, right? Unfortunately Judges don't seem to follow the *law* as much as their politics.
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    Back on topic, I made a required pre-full membership appearance today at the Richmond Boro Gun Club. I highly recommend it. If anyone is interested, PM me for more detailed info. I will be attending a .22 match Thursday night (you have to go to 2), and then I just need to complete 2 work parties to get my key. Can't wait! It is less than 5 minutes from work. I'll be shooting A LOT more!
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    my wife and i belong to the woodhaven range . nice range to shoot at

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    Quote Originally Posted by willjr75 View Post
    How do you figure that NYC did not arbitrarily make up their own licenses? I do not see any of those made up licenses in Penal Law 400. Limited business carry, premises, armed guard, limited armed guard, custodian license, ect are not in the Penal Law.

    They put in these made up licenses in their admin code. ...
    Ok. When I say arbitrarily, I mean what is indicated below.

    "arbitrarily" - based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

    Is NYC admin code "law" or not? Therein lies the answer. If it is law - they are not simply "making up" stuff, they are putting things into code which are binding as law, and violations of sections of those codes can attract sanctions...and which is specifically outlined within their powers in the state constitution.

    From wikipedia (and what I remember...)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo...istrative_Code
    The Administrative Code of the City of New York contains the codified local laws of New York City.[1] It contains 29 titles.[2]
    The Constitution of New York enumerates the powers of local governments, such as the power to elect a legislative body and adopt local laws.[3][4] A local law has a status equivalent with a law enacted by the Legislature (subject to certain exceptions and restrictions[5]), and is superior to the older forms of municipal legislation such as ordinances, resolutions, rules and regulations.[6]
    So it is either "the law" or as we discuss with administrative restrictions on upstate permits, wishful thinking by a judge.

    Passage of a law or NYC administrative rule (well except for the safe act!) is not an arbitrary process.

  18. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane_formula View Post
    Oh heavens no, I'm strictly a *sportsman*! I wish to pursue training for 3 Gun sporting events!
    Ok. I will play bad cop...

    There are no 3 gun sporting events within the confines of city of New York. Request denied! Next!

    - this is what they would likely say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FCG LLC View Post
    Is NYC admin code "law" or not? Therein lies the answer. If it is law - they are not simply "making up" stuff, they are putting things into code which are binding as law, and violations of sections of those codes can attract sanctions...and which is specifically outlined within their powers in the state constitution.
    If Penal Law 265 specifically says that in order to be exempted from the charge of Criminal Possession of a Firearm you must be licensed via the licenses in Penal Law 400 then there is a problem. A city Admin Code does not supercede a State Penal Law. The Penal Law would have to be changed.

    Technically as of this moment, those city residents in possession of pistols with those made up permits are in violation of Penal Law 265 since those permits aren't exempted via Penal Law 400.

    Here are the words from Penal Law 265 below.

    S 265.20 Exemptions.
    3. Possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license
    therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01 of
    this chapter or possession of a weapon as defined in paragraph (e) or
    (f) of subdivision twenty-two of section 265.00 of this article which is
    registered pursuant to paragraph (a) of subdivision sixteen-a of section
    400.00 of this chapter or is included on an amended license issued
    pursuant to section 400.00 of this chapter


    Now here are the exact words pertaining to carry licenses taken from Penal Law 400.

    2. Types of licenses

    (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or
    place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the
    issuance thereof;


    Those made up licenses do not allow carry and concealment without regard to employment or place of possession. A Premise Permit does not allow carry or concealment anywhere. A limited Business Carry or Limited Guard Permit gives regard to employment and place of possession.

    Their Admin Code even says that these Permits are subject to prosecution via the Penal Law if violated. They even go as far as saying that the Special Carry is the only license issued via the Penal Law. So yea, they are passed laws but are they even legal since they violate the Penal Law?

    There are also multiple definitions for arbitrary but that is not the issue. The issue is that their Admin Code violates the State Penal Law. Can they put into their City Admin Code that State National Guardsman cannot possess firearms unless permitted by them individually while on duty going against the State Penal Law which already exempts them? I think not. Can they allow certain people they like with Special Carrys to carry in any school in the whole state against state law because they give them a card to do so and put it in their Admin Code? I think not. The funny thing is they did exactly that with allowing carry on a permit not valid via the Penal Law if they have a Hunting Authorization Card with a made up Premise Permit.

    All firearms are illegal and subject to prosecution via Penal Law 265 unless licensed or exempted via Penal Law 400. Nowhere does it say you can be exempted via a City Admin Code.

    A city cannot make laws that contradict State Laws. That's what they did and got away with by making up their own licenses that contradict the Penal Law.

    It's corruption at it's finest and judges allow it.
    Last edited by willjr75; 03-07-2016 at 07:17 PM.
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    The city has "home rule" authority, which I bet is where the Admin Code stems derives its existence from.
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    Right. But can they contradict state law? Can they authorise a Special Carry Holder access to carry at any school in the state against the Penal Law? Because that is what they are doing by allowing a Premise Permit Holder to carry outside of its boundaries with a bogus Hunting Authorization Card with no carry permit in the woods.

    They cannot supercede Federal Law on LEOSA so why can they supercede state law?
    Last edited by willjr75; 03-07-2016 at 08:29 PM.
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    I believe there was controversy in the past of the legality of the "hunting authorisation". I bet mathjak knows more about that than I.
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    the court rulings on the premise permit being used to hunt and go to the range all said local authority's are free to modify or amend the terms to better fit the locality . the state laws are only a guide and not the determining factor solely

    in the latest challenge as far as the fact nyc has no non membership ranges where you can just go and shoot the judge said there is nothing stopping anyone from opening a range in nyc where you do not need to be a member . . that is an economic issue not a legal one so the nypd ruling about only shooting at a nypd approved range stands ...

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    i tried posting the case but for some reason it reverses the color of the letters and won't let me change them

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    Mathjak107, the courts are in on it as well. It's a shame. I never knew state law to be a guide. It's a guide for guns but for everything else, it is absolute.

    There is nothing stopping an Upstate DA from prosecuting someone with a Premise Premise Permit. That's what we need.
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    it is a crime not an administrave violation to be off premise with a nyc residence permit . only exception is hunting or nypd approved range .
    the nysrpa lost their challenge .

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