Jeff's Take on Birdshot for HD
Close

Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Colonel RandallOfLegend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Rochester
    Posts
    3,481

    Default Jeff's Take on Birdshot for HD



    Video is a year old, but I haven't seen anyone post it Listen carefully in the video, he tosses in so many sarcastic comments. I always enjoy his videos. He does make me rethink the #4/00 choice.

  2. Register or Log In to remove this Ad!
  3. #2
    Corporal
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    171

    Default

    Great video. I've never seen this guy's stuff before, but I'll be keeping an eye out.

    "Not many people wear an onion sack, but you never know." Lol, classic.

  4. #3
    General DystruktoBoi1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Fayetteville NC
    Age
    30
    Posts
    5,413

    Default

    I hope he used it for Coyote bait or something later at least, sucks to waste meat.
    Rifle Wants: CETME, SBR AK in 7.62, Daewoo DR200

    Pistol wants: XDM, Used Beretta M9/92FS for carry, S&W 5904/5/6 variant, Browning High Power





  5. Remove Advertisements
    NYFireArms.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    HEX
    HEX is offline
    Colonel HEX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Ulster County
    Posts
    4,104

    Default

    I should preface this by saying I'm not a fan of this guy. All of his gun reviews read like advertisements..because they are. Regardless of whether you agree with me on this though it has to be said that this video is nonsense and serves no purpose other than to spread already prolific misinformation.

    One guy in the woods shooting a piece of meat once doesn't prove a damn thing over extensive testing by professionals. In fact, if you want to listen to the test results of a guy just 'shootin' stuff' you'll find exactly the opposite results over on Box O' Truth
    The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2

    It has been proven time and time again that birdshot causes gruesome but often shallow and non-lethal wounds on gunshot victims. Extensive statistics have been formed by federal agencies tasked with ballistics testing as well as largely by medical institutions that have received, examined, and treated gunshot wounds; not by people shooting a block of meat in their backyard.

    The argument by those who would tout birdshot as an acceptable self defense round will invariably be that it be used to impede over-penetration. That being said we should all be able to agree that regardless of any arguments on caliber or proper ammunition the basis and bottom line of any self defense shooting is to shoot to stop the threat and that means to continue shooting until the threat is absolutely and most assuredly stopped. Will birdshot stop a threat at typical self defense range ? If the shooter is both skilled and lucky enough to directly hit a vital area, then the answer is POSSIBLY. The chances of this optimal shot however are low in a realistic shooting situation. Overpenetration should then be less of a concern I should think then firing as few rounds as possible to effectively stop a threat, which in any realistic scenario must account for potential damage to both vital and non vital areas.

    In my opinion at least it is frankly downright wrong for a person with so much influence over the shooting community as a writer for Gunblast to 'potentially' be posting information that could get someone killed (the wrong person). Birdshot is for clays and little birdies and using the wrong ammunition to defend your life and your loved one's lives just because Grandpappy and Jeff from Gunblast said it was ok is ludicrous.

  7. #5
    Colonel ScotchMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Monroe County
    Posts
    2,687

    Default

    I completely agree with Hex. I also have zero respect for Jeff Quinn for the reasons stated. I've never seen a video or article of his that offers anything of substance at all. The only interaction I have with his stuff anymore is he posts a lot of good pictures in his reviews that often come up on Google images.
    NRA Instructor
    NRA Member

  8. #6
    General DystruktoBoi1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Fayetteville NC
    Age
    30
    Posts
    5,413

    Default

    In the town next to mine when I lived in NY, there was a dispute between neighbors about where someone could ride a dirtbike (one said it was his property, the other said it was HIS property....etc etc) and long story short the guy on the dirtbike took 3 rounds of birdshot to the body (he had a helmet on) he was out of the hospital later that same day after they picked the pellets out of his shallow wounds, and he was even trying to fist fight the guy that shot him the next day.....so I'll stick with my magnum 00 buck.


    I like Iraqveteran and he does a video similar to this, except instead of saying "See it'll kill a person" he proves that the birdshot will penetrate through an apartment wall just as easily as buck, so why limit yourself?





    Actually nvm that is not what this video shows lol, I must have beenthinking of a different one.
    Last edited by DystruktoBoi1; 09-30-2013 at 11:24 AM.
    Rifle Wants: CETME, SBR AK in 7.62, Daewoo DR200

    Pistol wants: XDM, Used Beretta M9/92FS for carry, S&W 5904/5/6 variant, Browning High Power





  9. #7
    Colonel atTheWheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Monroe county
    Posts
    3,568

    Default

    I have tried to talk a buddy out of using number 4's for the reasons hex mentions.
    We even did a test with a 1 inch thick piece of wood and of course at 15-20 feet, it cuts through. His concern with over penetration is the same as anyone's but I can't talk him to switching to 04 buck or 00 buck.
    He's looking at the hole saying to me, See? This stuff makes a hole - I don't want any more than this.
    He can't comprehend the idea that striking a vital is required to end the situation. I explained that what he's using will leave a nasty looking wound but may not end the threat.
    After a 20 minute conversation after the test, I can only walk away shaking my head - hoping his family is ok in the event of a threat.

  10. #8
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Somewhere in the US
    Posts
    2,647

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by atTheWheels View Post
    I have tried to talk a buddy out of using number 4's for the reasons hex mentions.
    We even did a test with a 1 inch thick piece of wood and of course at 15-20 feet, it cuts through. His concern with over penetration is the same as anyone's but I can't talk him to switching to 04 buck or 00 buck.
    He's looking at the hole saying to me, See? This stuff makes a hole - I don't want any more than this.
    He can't comprehend the idea that striking a vital is required to end the situation. I explained that what he's using will leave a nasty looking wound but may not end the threat.
    After a 20 minute conversation after the test, I can only walk away shaking my head - hoping his family is ok in the event of a threat.
    They don't even make anything higher #2 buck for 20 gauge shotguns, are you saying those are useless for self defense? #4 buck in 12 gauge is an adequate load. I do agree that this video is not the best, using #8 birdshot is not a good advice, however for 10 and 12 gauge shotguns I'd be confident using higher shots in FF-BBB range for home defense.

  11. #9
    Colonel RandallOfLegend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Rochester
    Posts
    3,481

    Default

    my usual penetration reference, TNOutdoors9. I hope most people would agree that a load that can stop a man will penetrate several interior walls. The gel test below confirms the above comments.


  12. #10
    Colonel bananabandit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Anywhere but NY
    Posts
    3,089

    Default

    I think you just want to believe something thats not really there.

    Hey, if you want to use birdshot, by all means. Better be using a Saiga 12 if you plan on stopping him in a timely fashion.

  13. #11
    General
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Interwebz
    Posts
    12,953

    Default

    OK full disclosure I didn't watch the video but what I'm taking from the thread is the guy is advocating bird shot for home defense. I'm new to shotgun as a home defense platform but what I can tell you from a recent class that I took I wouldn't want to be shot with it at distances common within the home (10 yards max with 3-5 being more common). The goal is to stop the threat not necessarily kill it. Two to the chest at 5 yards has a very good chance of doing that in most situations. That said my new HD shottie has Hornady 00 critical defense. 7 in the tube and 6 on the saddle...

    Flame away its been slow today lol...




  14. #12
    General meketrefe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    *
    Posts
    11,238

    Default

    No matter what those youtubers say if someone says a birdshot would not neutralize a threat with authority in a home defense situation
    then they do not know one thing about shotguns.
    Some claim if the intruder has heavy leather or what not but this is total BS. A 8,71/2 or 6 birdshot will F anyone up the same way or even worse
    as larger shot. Expect a shallow but broad wound with MASSIVE trauma. So massive that there is no possibility for reconstruction.
    If you shoot someone in the arm, that arm will be gone. Same with a leg. They might be still attached but initially they are amputations.
    Any doctor with experience in this type of trauma will explain it to you. There is nothing left to fix.
    Imagine in a chest cavity, neck or head. Nothing left.

    Because these loads are designed to kill birds 40 & 60ft+ away by increasing the chance with a reduce nr. of pellets, but when administered at the average range inside a room/home the pattern is one massive cluster of a meat and bone grinding pellets hitting at full momentum.

    Anyway the #4 should make anyone feel very good specially those in a farm. A 000 or 00 buck shot is for that, taking buck and LE/ military to go through car doors, glass and other intermediate barriers. In a home, specially with family around or an apartment complex is simply a huge liability
    and not worth the risk.

    My home defense load is either a #6 or turkey load. Just the noise of a supersonic shotgun shot inside an enclosed space is enough to make someone soil their pants.
    Last edited by meketrefe; 10-02-2013 at 09:23 PM.

  15. #13
    Occupy NYF JBT Tank Operator Spydermonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In ur rearview
    Posts
    2,322

    Default

    Harry Whittington seems to be just fine and still has around 200 pellets in him after being shot in the face. If I need to defend myself or others against someone who has the potential to fight through pain due to drugs or insanity I'd prefer to use something that isn't intended to put cute little forest creatures on my dinner plate.
    Disregarding color of law, preventing free travel, and creating joinder with NYF members since 2010.

    "I've always felt that the real horror is next door to us, that the scariest monsters are our neighbors."
    -George A. Romero

  16. #14
    General meketrefe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    *
    Posts
    11,238

    Default

    Dick Cheney shot his friend at 40 yards following a bird. Very different from shooting anyone at a range from 10, 15 or even 20 yards with a #7.1/2 or a #6 shot. LEt me give you a more significative example. A friend of the family who has been hunting with my uncle for 40 years had an accident 2 years ago. A very responsible hunter, national champion in sporting clays and olympic trap with lots of experience in the field, took a wrong step and fell off an iced rock while hunting. As a result his firearm dropped in front of him about 4-5 yards and a shot went off. Nobody at Perazzi understands how that was possible with the safety on. The #8 birdshot got him just in the outside of the thigh. It took 7 hours for a rescue team to get him off the mountain and he didn't bleed to death because a friend who was with him helped him with effective first aid and a torniquete. The shot got him in the bone too and because the trauma being so massive with these shots the doctors could not reconstruct his leg. The way they explained that to him it was grinded mean and bone all the way through. He is doing fine now but w/o his right leg. He continues to be very involved in environment protection and his passion but will never be the same. No cute little forest creatures were harmed that day.

    The FBI has a pretty comprehensive dossier of shotgun victims. I think you can find still it online. Also at Cornel's university
    library there is a very good study on firearms trauma (with great detail in shotgun) but too gruesome to post here.
    Even if one doesn't plan to work on a trauma room at a hospital they will find that useful.



    A shotgun entrance wound with a central defect and numerous individual pellet entrances


    A shotgun wound with a central defect surrounded by numerous satellite pellet entrance wounds.
    The upper arm was also involved
    Last edited by meketrefe; 10-03-2013 at 02:04 AM.

  17. #15
    General meketrefe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    *
    Posts
    11,238

    Default

    Shoulder bone GONE.



    1. After irrigation to clean the area



    2. debris removed (note shell wadding in lower left)



    3. what they replaced it wif



    4. hooking it all together, or what there is left to hook up anyway.


    And finally, the end result:

  18. #16
    Occupy NYF JBT Tank Operator Spydermonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In ur rearview
    Posts
    2,322

    Default

    You don't need to justify your choice of ammo to me, if you feel comfortable with it then that's your call. It's better than a sharp stick but you don't need to reload a stick.
    Disregarding color of law, preventing free travel, and creating joinder with NYF members since 2010.

    "I've always felt that the real horror is next door to us, that the scariest monsters are our neighbors."
    -George A. Romero

  19. #17
    General meketrefe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    *
    Posts
    11,238

    Default

    Spyder,
    I respect your opinions and it is not really justifying to you or totally discarding larger shot. Of course we are free of our choices. Of course we want to terminate the threat ASAP but also avoid harming any family members or others.
    So I just want to make sure also anyone reading this and living in an apartment or tight quarters with maybe a large family considers something 'potentially safer' for unintended recipients yet very effective on point blank targets. The whole idea is to have the facts so one can decide based on their own personal circumstances.
    #71/2 or #6 shot in close quarters is brutal. modified choke should be perfect but it doesn't really matter that much a the typical range inside a room and home. If someone wants to step it up a tad, hevishot bb coyote load or #4 but then we have a lot more penetration through several walls yet it will be safer than other choices for the residents and near by neighbours in next apartment or across the street.
    At those ranges there should be no doubt about the effectiveness of those smaller pellets vs. buck or slugs. This is well documented in medical and law enforcement studies.
    Last edited by meketrefe; 10-03-2013 at 09:11 AM.

  20. #18
    Colonel atTheWheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Monroe county
    Posts
    3,568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuomostein View Post
    They don't even make anything higher #2 buck for 20 gauge shotguns, are you saying those are useless for self defense? #4 buck in 12 gauge is an adequate load. I do agree that this video is not the best, using #8 birdshot is not a good advice, however for 10 and 12 gauge shotguns I'd be confident using higher shots in FF-BBB range for home defense.
    Sorry, should have been more specific. I was trying to explain the merits of him switching to #4 buck in a 12 gauge. The testing was done with IIRC #4 turkey loads.
    And like spyder said, Somebody could be hopped up on who knows what.
    I'm aiming center mass with at least #4 buck to reach vitals and stop the threat. IMO, #6 may not cut it even at 5-10 feet. The threat will certainly be in a world of hurt but may not be stopped and most home invasions include MULTIPLE threats. I may not get a 2nd chance to reiterate my 1st impression.
    And I agree partly with meketrefe in that the threat will have a terrible wound or may never have the function of an arm/leg again. I certainly wouldn't want to get hit at any range by any shot knowing this but I'm not aiming at shoulders/legs/hips/knees and of course my adrenaline may cause me to hit one of those instead.
    I'm not going to tell anybody here what they should/shouldn't use but when a buddy asks me for my help/opinion I'm going with what I know.
    I used to think #3 steel shot 3 inchers were fine and did my own testing several years ago and frankly wasn't impressed with the results. I have since switched to #4 buck or 00 buck and got the results I was looking for.

  21. #19
    General meketrefe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    *
    Posts
    11,238

    Default

    Just to be clear. I talked about the amputations as an example of the power of the load cluster at those ranges. A centermass shot with the #6 on the chest, neck or head will result in instant collapse and death, not just incapacitation. When I mentioned shallow broad wound cavities we are talking about 6"-7" and withing those 6"-7" everything is virtually gone, including bone, vital blood vessels and organs.

  22. #20
    Colonel atTheWheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Monroe county
    Posts
    3,568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by meketrefe View Post
    Just to be clear. I talked about the amputations as an example of the power of the load cluster at those ranges. A centermass shot with the #6 on the chest, neck or head will result in instant collapse and death, not just incapacitation. When I mentioned shallow broad wound cavities we are talking about 6"-7" and withing those 6"-7" everything is virtually gone, including bone, vital blood vessels and organs.
    Agree, 6-7 inch wound cavities should work well on probably a 150-190 lb threat. It's the 240lb or more middle linebacker/tight end built threat that may require more. Add a mind/body altering substance, dash of desperation and possibly armed and it starts to go sideways quick.

Similar Threads

  1. Birdshot Sources in Monroe
    By ScotchMan in forum Ammunition and Reloading
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-09-2013, 08:52 AM
  2. For Trade: I will swap 12 gauge slugs for birdshot
    By groovy mike in forum Ammo and Reloading Equipment For Sale
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-01-2013, 03:06 PM
  3. An example of why you shouldn't use birdshot for SD
    By Spydermonkey in forum Firearms in the News
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 11-19-2012, 07:57 PM
  4. Birdshot vs Buckshot for self-defense
    By ronnyvous1 in forum Shotguns
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 01-20-2011, 08:52 PM
  5. question about birdshot.
    By Suby in forum Handguns
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-20-2009, 03:17 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •